breeding Cross Breeding question

[Teaks]

Hey all, I've done some looking around and there hasn't been any real tests that I've found for this instance of cross breeding. I am curious on the possibilities of growing a super hot like reaper/scorpion or even ghost pepper along side a large pepper like a bell pepper. All of this with the hopes of manually cross polinating in order to create a pepper with intense heat but is quite large like you get with a bell pepper.
 
Curious if anyone has knowledge in the area, or tips on how this could be possible? I know you wouldn't be able to see any certain characteristics until maybe a generation or two of harvesting seeds. I've watched numerous cross breed videos on YouTube (mainly by a YouTuber Khang Starr which I highly recommend). However I have never seen anyone cross a super hot with a bell. I think the only thing I've seen was maybe a jalepeno and a bell pepper but I can't remember exactly if that's what it actually was.
 
I'd love to generally hear any stories about cross breeding, so if you have any experience let me know!
 
Thank you all

 

[Spokanepepperman]

Not sure if you've checked this out but worth a look http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php

 

[Teaks]

Not sure if you've checked this out but worth a look http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php

 
I have not! I will read it now, thanks so much for the reply!

 

[BlackFatalii]

Yes, it is possible to cross superhots with bells, although I'm not sure whether the results will be exactly what you are hoping for. But sure, annuums and chinenses can be successfully cross pollinated, so you can try it if you like. Yaki Blue is one example of a fairly mild annuum crossed with a superhot pepper. Bell pepper x Scotch Bonnet crosses have been done too. Anyway, here's a good how-to guide for crossing peppers: http://fatalii.net/Growing_chile_peppers/Breeding
 
 

 

[Teaks]

Yes, it is possible to cross superhots with bells, although I'm not sure whether the results will be exactly what you are hoping for. But sure, annuums and chinenses can be successfully cross pollinated, so you can try it if you like. Yaki Blue is one example of a fairly mild annuum crossed with a superhot pepper. Bell pepper x Scotch Bonnet crosses have been done too. Anyway, here's a good how-to guide for crossing peppers: http://fatalii.net/Growing_chile_peppers/Breeding
 
 

 
Wow those Yaki peppers are beautiful! Might have to grow them based soley on their color! Ha.
 
I was planning on polinating both a super hot and a bell with the counter plant, if that makes sense.
So polinate a flower on the bell with the super hot pollen and vise versa. Then growing out the different pods I get from both of those.
Second year I would do it again but with each variation, for example,
(SH=SuperHot, B=Bell, SH1=the pod I got from pollinating a superhot with a bell, B1=the plant I got from pollinating a bell with a super hot)
 
SH x SH1
SH x B1
SH1 x B1 -- meaning the Superhot Cross plant pollinated with the Bell cross plant
B1 x SH1 -- conversely meaning the bell variant pollinated by the hot variant
B x SH1
B x B1
 
then in my third harvest I would continue to just grow out the generations to choose the properties I like the best.
 
What do you think?

 

[D3monic]

I use the methods blackfatali mentioned. Annum x chinense should be pretty easy. Maybe instead bell I'd look at candidates like aleppo, poblano ect. Either way your results might be far from what you picture. I crossed Caribbean red hab with Aji Amarillo and ended up with a tiny pepper. F2 would be your largest genetic variation and where you will most likely find the plant you're looking for

 

[Peter_L]

Like D3monic said, you'll probably be trying to find your "large hot pepper" in the F2 generation. Bell peppers have been selected to exhibit mostly recessive traits. The dominant traits from the smaller hot peppers will likely be most of what you see in the initial cross. Going by your schematic, you should be trying a lot of 
 
SH1 x SH1
   B1 x B1
 
To be honest, if you crossed a 7-pot red with a red bell pepper, I would expect it to come out looking like essentially a milder 7-pot red. Maybe it would end up with one flower/node, larger leaves/flowers, or with a different taste. 
 
It's certainly possible to eventually get there though (or at least close!) it just takes a lot of time and plants. Good luck!

 

[Teaks]

Like D3monic said, you'll probably be trying to find your "large hot pepper" in the F2 generation. Bell peppers have been selected to exhibit mostly recessive traits. The dominant traits from the smaller hot peppers will likely be most of what you see in the initial cross. Going by your schematic, you should be trying a lot of 
 
SH1 x SH1
   B1 x B1
 
To be honest, if you crossed a 7-pot red with a red bell pepper, I would expect it to come out looking like essentially a milder 7-pot red. Maybe it would end up with one flower/node, larger leaves/flowers, or with a different taste. 
 
It's certainly possible to eventually get there though (or at least close!) it just takes a lot of time and plants. Good luck!

 

So you're saying I would likely get the best results from breeding both of the crosses with each other? I had assumed that perhaps continually crossing a "purebred" so to speak with a crossbreed might be the best way to dial in the traits I want. You're correct though with the characteristics I might get, maybe I just get a more mild superhot instead of a a larger one. I wish there were a way to accurately calculate this.
 
 
Thanks for the reply!

 

[Teaks]

I use the methods blackfatali mentioned. Annum x chinense should be pretty easy. Maybe instead bell I'd look at candidates like aleppo, poblano ect. Either way your results might be far from what you picture. I crossed Caribbean red hab with Aji Amarillo and ended up with a tiny pepper. F2 would be your largest genetic variation and where you will most likely find the plant you're looking for

 
Poblano was a second thought of mine, I think having you bring that up may lean me towards starting there first.
 
Doing this and replanting the seeds from the biggest spiciest pods would give the best results I assume? And would you suggest allowing the crosses to self pollinate every node or should I try to continually cross breed every new generation?
 
Thanks for the reply
 

 

[Peter_L]

 
So you're saying I would likely get the best results from breeding both of the crosses with each other? I had assumed that perhaps continually crossing a "purebred" so to speak with a crossbreed might be the best way to dial in the traits I want. You're correct though with the characteristics I might get, maybe I just get a more mild superhot instead of a a larger one. I wish there were a way to accurately calculate this.
 
 
Thanks for the reply!

 
Well, I was suggesting that you should add that combination to your other listed crosses. It's really difficult to accurately predict the outcome so it's just to play the numbers game and give yourself a better chance.
 
Allowing the original F1s to self-pollinate is also arguably the easiest cross to do (just put a mesh bag over the plant if it's outside - verses collecting pollen and clipping stamens, etc.) so there's no reason not to do it.
 
There is some literature on pepper genetics, some is easy to find, some is hard. If you want some specific scientific literature on the subject I could help you out (fair warning - it's complicated).
 
The dominant traits are usually for small, medium spicy, and red mature fruit. (Maybe S/s for size; P/p for spicy)
 
To be super simplistic Superhots are SS and PP and Bell pepper is ss and pp
 
F1 = Ss and Pp which is still a small hot fruit
 
F2 will look like this: ~56% are small hot fruit, ~19% are large hot fruit, ~19% are small no heat fruit, ~6% are large no heat fruit. Only ~19% of your plants will have what you want.
 
Obviously it's way more complicated multiple genes code for size and shape and multiple more are related to capsaicin production. Might be that only ~5% of F2 plants have close to what you are looking for.

 

[b3rnd]

 
Well, I was suggesting that you should add that combination to your other listed crosses. It's really difficult to accurately predict the outcome so it's just to play the numbers game and give yourself a better chance.
 
Allowing the original F1s to self-pollinate is also arguably the easiest cross to do (just put a mesh bag over the plant if it's outside - verses collecting pollen and clipping stamens, etc.) so there's no reason not to do it.
 
There is some literature on pepper genetics, some is easy to find, some is hard. If you want some specific scientific literature on the subject I could help you out (fair warning - it's complicated).
 
The dominant traits are usually for small, medium spicy, and red mature fruit. (Maybe S/s for size; P/p for spicy)
 
To be super simplistic Superhots are SS and PP and Bell pepper is ss and pp
 
F1 = Ss and Pp which is still a small hot fruit
 
F2 will look like this: ~56% are small hot fruit, ~19% are large hot fruit, ~19% are small no heat fruit, ~6% are large no heat fruit. Only ~19% of your plants will have what you want.
 
Obviously it's way more complicated multiple genes code for size and shape and multiple more are related to capsaicin production. Might be that only ~5% of F2 plants have close to what you are looking for.

 
I'd actually love to read some of that material you're talking about! 

 

[Teaks]

 
Well, I was suggesting that you should add that combination to your other listed crosses. It's really difficult to accurately predict the outcome so it's just to play the numbers game and give yourself a better chance.
 
Allowing the original F1s to self-pollinate is also arguably the easiest cross to do (just put a mesh bag over the plant if it's outside - verses collecting pollen and clipping stamens, etc.) so there's no reason not to do it.
 
There is some literature on pepper genetics, some is easy to find, some is hard. If you want some specific scientific literature on the subject I could help you out (fair warning - it's complicated).
 
The dominant traits are usually for small, medium spicy, and red mature fruit. (Maybe S/s for size; P/p for spicy)
 
To be super simplistic Superhots are SS and PP and Bell pepper is ss and pp
 
F1 = Ss and Pp which is still a small hot fruit
 
F2 will look like this: ~56% are small hot fruit, ~19% are large hot fruit, ~19% are small no heat fruit, ~6% are large no heat fruit. Only ~19% of your plants will have what you want.
 
Obviously it's way more complicated multiple genes code for size and shape and multiple more are related to capsaicin production. Might be that only ~5% of F2 plants have close to what you are looking for.

 
Yea I think I can remember a lesson in biology sounding a lot like this, and you've got the exercise to make a grid and determine what the chances are Baby X is born with blonde hair blue eyes etc etc. Obviously this is a lot more complex.
 
If I can fit it into my budget I plan on building a sizable greenhouse on my property hopefully running year round. If I can get this done I think a portion could easily be dedicated for growing these test variants.
 
I definitely want to do it right if I'm going to invest in trying to get the results we're talking about, the only unfortunate thing about this process is going to be the grow time for each new generation! Realistically I'd be looking at, perhaps a year or two before I have any results in order to establish a baseline of whats working - don't you think?
 
I am certainly interested in learning the specifics behind the genetics, and trying to be able to shorten the cross phase by being as accurate as possible. For now I am pleased enough that there are others interested in the idea as well. I don't suppose this would be a venture you'd have any interest in participating in long term? Being a numbers game, and as far as I can tell a game of chance, increasing the amount of these plants growing at one time would likely increase the chances at finding a desirable outcome.
 
Not trying to rope you into anything, but if you're interested in trying to grow a giant super hot as well I'd really enjoy seeing any progress you have.
 
I think first things first, I should get some scorpions or reapers ordered as well as pablano and a type of bell perhaps. I have a overwintered ghost right now but I don't know if I could get buds to cross at the same time, I imagine it's pretty time sensitive in order to pollinate correctly.

 

 

[Peter_L]

Sure, I'll send you guys a PM