Hey y'all, I've been reading up on pepper crossing and have come across two conflicting graphs regarding the different species. There is one here I've seen on thehotpepper that shows chinense and annuum crosses to be "partially fertile", but I've also found one here - http://www.permies.com/t/21123/a/7780/Cross-Peppers.jpg- that lists the cross as "prolific". Can anyone clear up this discrepancy for me?
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chinense Crossing C. chinense and C. annuum - some confusion
- Thread starter Commonwealth
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There's a pretty good guide on this site: http://www.thechileman.org/guide_seedsaving.php
Geeme, thanks for the link. That backs up the permies one as well - and from the talk I've heard here it sounded like the two should breed readily. It was http://www.fatalii.net/Growing_chile_peppers/Breedingthat had the "partially fertile".
So the suggestion being that both charts are right? That C. chinense & C. annuum cross prolifically, but that the F1 stock is only partially fertile? Is this why you don't see more hybrids between the two?
Hybridising tests that were performed by numerous researchers to prove/disprove relationships amongst species groups/complexes in Capsicum were published in:
PHYLOGENETIC RELATIONSHIPS OF CAPSICUM (SOLANACEAE) USING DNA SEQUENCES FROM TWO NONCODING REGIONS: THE CHLOROPLAST atpB-rbcL SPACER REGION AND NUCLEAR waxy INTRONS Brian M. Walsh and Sara B. Hoot
They have a diagram that shows that C. chinense, annuum and frutescens will freely hybridise. There are numerous examples out there of hybrids - some of them very strange - involving syuperhots and bell peppers amongst others.
I do know if any research has been conducted (hate it when peeps say doing research or research done - it is reasearching and conducting research!) on terminator genes in Capsicum - it is well-used in other plant breeding. Basically it is known that certain plants will not produce viable progeny if bred into a line. As an example: ornamental Pelargonioum - any hybrid involving P. fulgidum will be sterile - it is a great way of closing off a line so that it cannot be used by anyone else to breed something else. The F1 progeny of P. fulgidum is sterile and there is therefore no possibilty of an F2.
Now it may well be that this exists(and possibly only to a limited extent) within the annuum clade (annuum, chinense, frutescens and galapagoense) to prevent introgressive hybrids from swarming and and reducing the clade into an amorphous mass. Speculation but who knows.
Given that each of those species has a very distinct flavour and heat profile that is uniquely theirs, why would you want to muddle them? This could be why no-one bothers much with hybrids between them.
PHYLOGENETIC RELATIONSHIPS OF CAPSICUM (SOLANACEAE) USING DNA SEQUENCES FROM TWO NONCODING REGIONS: THE CHLOROPLAST atpB-rbcL SPACER REGION AND NUCLEAR waxy INTRONS Brian M. Walsh and Sara B. Hoot
They have a diagram that shows that C. chinense, annuum and frutescens will freely hybridise. There are numerous examples out there of hybrids - some of them very strange - involving syuperhots and bell peppers amongst others.
I do know if any research has been conducted (hate it when peeps say doing research or research done - it is reasearching and conducting research!) on terminator genes in Capsicum - it is well-used in other plant breeding. Basically it is known that certain plants will not produce viable progeny if bred into a line. As an example: ornamental Pelargonioum - any hybrid involving P. fulgidum will be sterile - it is a great way of closing off a line so that it cannot be used by anyone else to breed something else. The F1 progeny of P. fulgidum is sterile and there is therefore no possibilty of an F2.
Now it may well be that this exists(and possibly only to a limited extent) within the annuum clade (annuum, chinense, frutescens and galapagoense) to prevent introgressive hybrids from swarming and and reducing the clade into an amorphous mass. Speculation but who knows.
Given that each of those species has a very distinct flavour and heat profile that is uniquely theirs, why would you want to muddle them? This could be why no-one bothers much with hybrids between them.
RobStar said:
I can't think of a better reason to try and cross them .. its the unknown that drives humanity... =P
That being said, I am also one for purity... I love having the most pure specimens available to work with when crossing..
It's not to say that it isn't a worthwhile project. Quite the contrary - from a science perspective it is very interesting. I think there is also great scope for new hybrids that could be either very pretty or deliver a new flavour profile or yield.
I think the best success would be using the wilder forms of annuum - in particular annuum var glabriusculum (=var aviculare) as well as the wild/semi-selected forms of chinense. There is a definite trend in long-domesticated annuum to be quite far removed from chinense - the traits are so dissimilar that the hybrids are often a watered-down mish-mash.
I think a hybrid between Goat's Weed and frutescens would be quite something. Also Goat's Weed x Naga Morich would surely deliver some interesting progeny.
I think the best success would be using the wilder forms of annuum - in particular annuum var glabriusculum (=var aviculare) as well as the wild/semi-selected forms of chinense. There is a definite trend in long-domesticated annuum to be quite far removed from chinense - the traits are so dissimilar that the hybrids are often a watered-down mish-mash.
I think a hybrid between Goat's Weed and frutescens would be quite something. Also Goat's Weed x Naga Morich would surely deliver some interesting progeny.
Here's an F2 wild annuum x (semi?)wild chinense - Chiltepin Sonoran Orange x CAP 691:RobStar said:
And a more chinense-looking sibling:
Both parents being less domesticated probably did help with F1 fertility - there's a chance that the F1 further outcrossed, but I doubt it and will know for sure later this summer.
There's a frutescens x goat's weed somewhere on this site and the plant did indeed look interesting. I've tried bhut x goat's weed and got a few seeds at least in one direction. Only casually attempted to grow them however - didn't get anything, but may have been seed handling issues. I have crossed and grown some plants that had a mix of goat's weed and chinense traits however. Had a 3/4 annuum fuzzy plant with multi-flowered nodes. Pods had a very sweet flavor and then sudden sharp heat. The pods would rapidly dry on plant.
It's those distinct flavor profiles that make the idea of crossing them interesting and exciting to me in the first place - the opportunity to take the most appealing traits of each and combine them into something new. It's no different than crossing within the same species except that the amount of variability - the range of available genes and traits - is increased when you are selecting from 2 different species. Maybe the F1 is a muddle, but once those genes start to really segregate in subsequent generations and certain characteristics really shine in particular offspring its the farthest thing from a muddle.
EBHarvey said:
Yes certain traits. You have no idea what you are going to get. But because you made it you stick with it and try various lines. You might get variously shaped fruits, bigger yields, stronger plants etc. But it's all about what you are trying to achieve at the end of the day.
My comments were directed at flavour. Capsicuum annuum has a very distinct flavour profile when green and when dry which is very different to C. chinense as the both of them are different to C. baccatum and so on and so forth. The muddling refers to the flavour profile. Floral chinense crossed with earthy annuum? You will note that the hybrids that do exist don't really jump out as regards flavour - they have a burn of note - due to high capsaicin and dihydrocapsaicin levels but flavour is not their strong point.