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Different pod genetics
- Thread starter b3rnd
- Start date
Genetics from all the pods are the same ,
Unless one was crosspollinated ,
So, the small runt of a pod will give you the same genetics as the big beautiful pod , unless one was crosspolinated.
I also use the big pretty pods for seedsaving. It just feels better!
...........And they have more seeds ! 
Unless one was crosspollinated ,
So, the small runt of a pod will give you the same genetics as the big beautiful pod , unless one was crosspolinated.
I also use the big pretty pods for seedsaving. It just feels better!
...........And they have more seeds ! 
`b3rnd said:
Given a choice, wouldn't it make sense to save seeds from the pod that exhibits the trait you want?
You'll note the pods circled in red are bonnet shaped, the ones in black try to and the ones in white have none.
`
Isn't that how the P. Dreadie bonnets came to be...through pod selection? I saved some "select" MOA seeds from last year but i didnt get around to growing them this year.
From a genetics stand point (assuming every flower was self-pollinated) the runts will give you the same seeds as the big, perfect, award-winning peppers. However, as karoo mentioned, large pods tend to have more seeds and also the viability of those seeds are probably better. If the plant is "screwing up" the development of a pod from an appearance perspective, it's likely not going so great on the seed development side of things either.
From an epigenetics stand point, runty pod seeds might not be quite as good as the average. Essentially, if there was some stressing condition that is affecting pod development, specific gene expression might be changed even if the genes are the same. The extent that this will produce lasting effects generationally is still researched and up for debate (at least in humans... not sure if peppers are that hot of a topic in the epigenetics research circles
).
So it's easiest to save seeds from the pods that look the best because even if your runty pod's seeds won't be producing a plant full of runts, those seeds might be slow to germinate and have less vigor as a seedling.
From an epigenetics stand point, runty pod seeds might not be quite as good as the average. Essentially, if there was some stressing condition that is affecting pod development, specific gene expression might be changed even if the genes are the same. The extent that this will produce lasting effects generationally is still researched and up for debate (at least in humans... not sure if peppers are that hot of a topic in the epigenetics research circles
).So it's easiest to save seeds from the pods that look the best because even if your runty pod's seeds won't be producing a plant full of runts, those seeds might be slow to germinate and have less vigor as a seedling.
Lots of misinformation on this thread.
If you have a plant that is giving you pod shapes that are all over the place, and you save seeds from that plant, you'll most likely have pod shapes that are all over the place in future generations.
In this case, you're actually genetically selecting for a plant that gives inconsistent pod shapes.
In this case, you're actually genetically selecting for a plant that gives inconsistent pod shapes.
So if you were trying to stabilize say a specific pod shape, would you grow out your F1s in say 10 plants, and then just choice the plant that had more pods in the pod shape you wanted for the F2 grow?Peter_L said:
Spicy Mushroom said:
F1 plants should be pretty consistent assuming the parent plants were well-stabilized so I would expect most of them to have similar looking pods. Yes, I would select for plants that show all-around traits closest to your desired traits. For example, saving seeds from a plant that has 20 pods that look 90% correct makes a lot more sense to me than saving seeds from a plant that has 1 pod that looks 100% right and 19 that look completely wrong. Your method would also be good advice for saving seeds from F2, F3, etc. Be sure to save seeds from multiple pods on your best plant.
Selective breeding is a lengthy process and total chance of variation (from the original parents) will only increase as the filial generation increases.
EDIT - I think I had some incorrect information, changed to what I'm pretty sure is correct
Crosses are often said to be "unstable" and some people seems use that as an explanation for why their pods on the same plant are so different. I have always thought this was a misunderstanding.DontPanic said:
The question is how much the pod variation on one and the same plant is affected by epigenetics, and how much is due to environmental and other factors (which I guess could also affect epigenetics so it's probably complicated). If you have an unstable cross do you think it is possible that epigenetics can individually control the mother gene and the father gene in the same position? If that's the case it means that I am the one with the misunderstanding and that unstable crosses are more likely to have wider variation of pods because they have more genes to play with.Peter_L said:
In any case, I think that growing lots of plants and selecting them based on the plant as a whole is probably best in the long run. Epigenetics seems to be a bit unreliable but perhaps necessary to get the right final touch. If you have a genetically stable variety that relies on epigenetics for the right gene expressions I'm afraid you might have to be prepared to select for the right phenotype indefinitely.
b3rnd said:
Nope, I think you're right. For some reason I was thinking of polyembryony, but I suppose every embryo would need to be inside the same seed coat. If different pollen grains fertilize multiple ovules (even in a self-cross) then seeds inside a single pod will be different.
Sorry for the misinformation!
This is very interesting to me. I isolate individual flowers using the white glue technique. When I isolated my F2 last year, the pod I ended up with looked nothing like the majority of what the plant produced. I'm growing (4) F3 plants right now from that one pod. I'm selecting the best plant and I actually have them numbered by which grow the best & second best (meaning irregular leaves) and so on. One is pretty good and im hoping the pod shape and pod color hold. I grew (8) F2's last year and got seven chocolates and one caramel. Caramel was what I was hoping for, so last year I selected by pod color...ignoring how the plant grew. These plants grow decently, so I'm just getting lucky.
Anyway, the isolated pod was the first pod on the plant, so naturally it's not gonna be the same as a summer sun pod. It was runty. But I got 14 good seeds out of it. Maybe these plants will tell me if selecting by pod shape matters.
Anyway, the isolated pod was the first pod on the plant, so naturally it's not gonna be the same as a summer sun pod. It was runty. But I got 14 good seeds out of it. Maybe these plants will tell me if selecting by pod shape matters.
What is the white glue technique?Bhuter said:
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Reading so much different information, I decided to look at peppers the same as people. None of what I am about to say is concrete cause so many sources contradict each other. Here goes.
If a plant is cross pollinated, the children (seeds) will be a combination of mama and papa dna just like people. However, the pod of that plant will be pure mama dna like a woman's afterbirth. However, there is some scientific studies which have found papa dna in the placenta. So it is possible that the folk stories about changing heat via cross pollination might (might I say, might) change the heat because a lot of that is in the placenta. However, most folk believe it will not change the heat or flavor and the studies I have read were on animals, not plants.
Cross pollination should not change the shape, color, or size of a pod. That is all mama dna. If a black man gets a white woman pregnant, the baby (seeds) might be black but the mama wont turn black. This one I am absolutely sure of. The placenta might change, but not the outside of the egg / pepper itself.
A self pollinated flower will not contain the same DNA as the mother. It contains a recombined DNA of the mother. If grown out / stabalized her dna is such a small variety that her pods will be about the same in appearance, but it is never exact dna. Again, just like with children, they dont all turn out exactly the same even with the same mother and father.
But please do not think I am an authority on this stuff. I am only scratching the surface of cross breeding. So many folk wiht so much more knowledge.
If a plant is cross pollinated, the children (seeds) will be a combination of mama and papa dna just like people. However, the pod of that plant will be pure mama dna like a woman's afterbirth. However, there is some scientific studies which have found papa dna in the placenta. So it is possible that the folk stories about changing heat via cross pollination might (might I say, might) change the heat because a lot of that is in the placenta. However, most folk believe it will not change the heat or flavor and the studies I have read were on animals, not plants.
Cross pollination should not change the shape, color, or size of a pod. That is all mama dna. If a black man gets a white woman pregnant, the baby (seeds) might be black but the mama wont turn black. This one I am absolutely sure of. The placenta might change, but not the outside of the egg / pepper itself.
A self pollinated flower will not contain the same DNA as the mother. It contains a recombined DNA of the mother. If grown out / stabalized her dna is such a small variety that her pods will be about the same in appearance, but it is never exact dna. Again, just like with children, they dont all turn out exactly the same even with the same mother and father.
But please do not think I am an authority on this stuff. I am only scratching the surface of cross breeding. So many folk wiht so much more knowledge.