Double shredded hardwood mulch?

hubby11

hubby11

Anyone use this as a additive to a potting mix?  It was recommended by someone at the nursery I frequent to help with water retention but I am concerned that as a hardwood as opposed to pine, it won't break down much.  Curious if anyone uses it.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Uncomposted/decayed mulch isn't very good to use as a soil amendment, because it has the effect of leaching the nutrients from the soil as microbiota work to break it down... in effect causing your soil to become deficient.   However, if the mulch is well-composted then it will already be saturated with microbiota and the necessary ingredients to continue breaking down.. and can be a good filler amendment at that stage.
 
I also forgot to add that even composted mulch can be risky to use indoors... as it usually contains lots of insect larvae and other pathogens that aren't a problem outdoors, but can manifest negative symptoms indoors.
 
Thanks for the replies, looks like I had better do some re-potting.  Luckily I only used it in two or three buckets.  ShowMeDaSauce, the place you linked to on Lee Hywy is reasonably close, will take a drive there if I can't get something closer, thanks.
 
Still pretty new at this, trying to go the self-watering route for the most part.
 
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Around here finding the fines is a huge pain. The only place i can get them is at one of the large composting places. Problem is i would need to buy a cubic yard of them for $42. I don't need a freaking cubic yard of pine bark fines though, :D
 
So see if you have any composting places near you. They normally only offer things like mulch, compost and soils.
 
Noah Yates said:
Uncomposted/decayed mulch isn't very good to use as a soil amendment, because it has the effect of leaching the nutrients from the soil as microbiota work to break it down... in effect causing your soil to become deficient.   However, if the mulch is well-composted then it will already be saturated with microbiota and the necessary ingredients to continue breaking down.. and can be a good filler amendment at that stage.
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Hi Noah,
I believe that this was disproven regarding it leaching nitrogen from the soil
 
I'd post some links, however I don't want to link to other forums. There is a great deal of discussion on permaculture forums about this and the "Back to Eden" method
 
ShowMeDaSauce said:
Around here finding the fines is a huge pain. The only place i can get them is at one of the large composting places. Problem is i would need to buy a cubic yard of them for $42. I don't need a freaking cubic yard of pine bark fines though, :D
 
So see if you have any composting places near you. They normally only offer things like mulch, compost and soils.
Click to expand...
 
Hi
A lot of tree surgeon companies give wood chips away for free
 
Powelly said:
I believe that this was disproven regarding it leaching nitrogen from the soil
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Interesting. I'd never heard that. Then again, I haven't looked it up in years either ;)

I thought that was the whole point behind using pine BARK fines and screening out the sapwood
 
With adequate water and ample nutrients it doesn't cause problems, but in my experience fresh hardwood will draw resources from the soil... (for the same reason biochar must be charged before application to soil.)     Personally, after many failed "experiments," I cannot recommend people use fresh mulch for anything other than weed suppression on walking trails.  Once it is well-broken down its great stuff for all your gardening needs.   All of this depends on ratios.  It is also possible, as I say, to provide enough organic matter to correspond to the demand of both the microbiota breaking down the hard wood and the rest of the soil web simultaneously.  I ran into problems trying to garden over too large an area without the corresponding irrigation and soil amendments necessary to use hardwood mulch without prior composting. 
 
MikeUSMC said:
Interesting. I'd never heard that. Then again, I haven't looked it up in years either ;)

I thought that was the whole point behind using pine BARK fines and screening out the sapwood
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For some reason, in Return to Eden method it is opposite. Not sure why
 
Fungi break down hardwood and I don't believe nitrogen is required to break this down. Plants in acidic soils generally favor ammonium and the bacteria who are often blamed for removing the nitrogen from the soil to break down wood chips utilize nitrates / nitrites which are commonly found in alkaline soils (the bacteria don't reproduce in soils with a pH below 7)
 
I suppose you have to entertain the idea of the hardwood absorbing some of the ammonium in the soil but there should be plenty of soil ammonium to go around and I doubt that the wood would absorb a significant enough amount
 
I personally have never added it to the soil but i have a few plants that I added cedar shavings to the top soil to see if it had any effect on pests and they're growing just as strong as all the other plants. The effect it has on pests remains to be seen but I've seen no changes when it comes to growth.
 
I did a bit more digging (haha) and sawdust will leach nitrogen from the soil
 
Because of this it's likely the rate of decomposition that matters, with slow decay not really impacting soil nutrient levels :)
 
Powelly said:
"The wood from heartwood and branches larger than 3 inches in diameter is not desirable due to its high C/N (carbon to nitrogen) ratio (averaging 600:1), which then requires additional nitrogen for decomposition"
 
Does anyone know what form the nitrogen is in? For example ammonium vs nitrates
Unfortunately it's not cited
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     Probably proteins.
 
Powelly said:
 
For some reason, in Return to Eden method it is opposite. Not sure why
 
Fungi break down hardwood and I don't believe nitrogen is required to break this down. Plants in acidic soils generally favor ammonium and the bacteria who are often blamed for removing the nitrogen from the soil to break down wood chips utilize nitrates / nitrites which are commonly found in alkaline soils (the bacteria don't reproduce in soils with a pH below 7)
 
I suppose you have to entertain the idea of the hardwood absorbing some of the ammonium in the soil but there should be plenty of soil ammonium to go around and I doubt that the wood would absorb a significant enough amount
Click to expand...
 

     In complex biological systems such as soil (about as complex as it can get) it's important to not look at components as being discrete, isolated pieces. That's like saying that red squirrels prefer conifer trees, so planting one in your yard will bring in a red squirrel population. There's way more to it than that.
     Sure, a glut of cellulose provided by wood chip application removes soil ammonium, but that's not the end of the story. One of the hallmarks of (living) soil is its capacity to buffer drastic chemical swings. Chemical components (ammonium in this case) that are significantly depleted by one process (sequestration by a plant or other organism) can lead to replacement from another source (nitrate gets converted to ammonium).
     And the machinery responsible for this buffering capacity is dependent on many factors. Parent material, climate, organic matter concentration and composition, resident populations of microbes and plants and animals... And all of these factors are interrelated as well. It's really hard to say with any certainty that soil will respond in a certain way because of one or two generalized rules or gudelines presented in a book.     
     I'm not knocking Loewenfels, by the way. These generalizations are the context in which all complex biological systems are taught, from 400 level molecular biology to a (really good) OTC book. But they are intended to be used as such. Separate, easy-to-digest models that, when looked at from a distance, will help form a picture that closely resembles what is really happening. Not hard and fast laws that must not be breached.
 
Thanks Hybrid,
I try to explain it so that people can understand why wood chips won't remove nitrogen from the soil away from plants. Perhaps there is a better way to explain it
 
I did explain a bit here http://thehotpepper.com/topic/59048-soil-for-raised-bed/page-2#entry1272322
 
copy from the link
 
try to google for J. André Fortin, specialist of the mycorrhizae, founded the Plant Biology Research Institute (attached to the Montreal Botanical Garden).
sorry french link but take a look for new study on ramial wood chips and myco
http://ici.radio-can...-supplement-web
http://ici.radio-can...pignons-pierres

second link show At the foot of the Manic-5 dam there were only stones in 1973.
at 5m 16 on first video pine with rwc planted in poor sandy soil
at 5m 34 same plantation without rwc

it's not only from the rwc that tree found the nutriment but the myco also "eat the rock" to get minerals from it
 
 
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