Hey everyone! I just had a lot of success diagnosing some issues I had with some of my peppers at a plant clinic (so awesome that those exist) and among a couple issues a vitamin deficiency was among them. I haven't seen anything discussed to recently (or it is likely I've missed the many recent threads on this) so I wanted to ask some fellow super hot growers about their go to soil compositions, be it big name brand soils, or less known organics/very well known organics as well as their go to fertilizers, be them synthetic, organic or hydroponic, store bought or home made. I've read so much about so many methods to the madness that is fertilizing, and I just wanted to really know if their was a simpler one mix/ do it all fertilizer that covers the needs of the plant well. I would love to here from those that have been doing this for years, as well as people new to this like myself that are just trying out some mixes, I'm interested to just here any and all methods to keeping our plants big, green, and eventually producing!
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fertilizer Fertilizers and Mediums
- Thread starter DjBecker
- Start date
not a perfect one mix solution because peppers need calcium and calcium does not play nicely with other ferts.
2 thing solutions are abundant. fert(osmocote,dynagro,masterblend,jacks,etc) + calcium(calmag or lime)
organic soilbuilding can get more complicated with all the different composts, meals, etc etc.
2 thing solutions are abundant. fert(osmocote,dynagro,masterblend,jacks,etc) + calcium(calmag or lime)
organic soilbuilding can get more complicated with all the different composts, meals, etc etc.
i love soilless mixes... i could verbally masturbate in your face all day about this shit. on a public beach or cafeteria even.
generally speaking, low bulk density, high pore space is always better than heavier denser soil. always.
why? because oxygen is better able to diffuse throughout the soil.
low bulk density high pore space mediums generally will not hold much water with respect to air volume so they need watering more frequently than a heavier mix. this changes with the particle sizes of the mixture, as smaller particles tend to create mixes with higher perched water tables.
the perched water table is simply how hight he water will wick up the container given ample watering.
small particles create small pore spaces, small pores create more surface tension, and more surface tension means water can move farther up. think of a candle wick verses a bike chain... or something. idk.
high tension mediums also effectivly compete with the plant rootsystem for water. meaning the plant will stress at higher soil moisture contents than it would in a low tension mix like coir or peat lite. low tension mediums are also said to make it easier for plants to transport nutrients from the medium, but im not 100% down with that.
anyway, larger pores, larger particles make better soil mediums because they hold more air, diffuse air more easily, and drain better by virtue of a lower surface tension and low perched water table.
heres the thing though. organic soil amendments are usually not super light and fluffy AND you need to add lots to get good nutrient density into the soil, so its going to be harder to get super light and fluffy high pore space soil mediums that are amended properly with only organics.
say you start with classic Cornell peat lite... 50/50 spag. sifted peat and medium coarse perlite. to get that to perform well you will need to add shit loads of manure, carbonate, rock phosphate and what ever else organic matter you want. this is going to make that light mix less light and less good.
you could try to simply water in the organic material, but idk how much work is involved in creating organic soupy fertilizer mixtures verses just amending the soil with shit and calcium phosphate etc. moreover, it stands to reason you will bulk out your soil by feeding with a soupy mess... but who knows.
low bulk density high pore space mediums work best with 100% water soluble fertilizers, like the sort you buy at a hydro store or CRF beads or topdressings.
it allows you much much much greater control over the nutrient regime, and allows you to react to changing conditions as they appear.... higher air temps often require modest reductions in soil medium salinity owing to drought stress.
my target bulk density is always around .1 - .2 grams per cubic centimeter. it varies as the perlite i can get at a decent price is always changing cost. i have not done peat lite in years since they stoped selling the good fertiloam canadian spagnum a few years back. the only shit ive seen in houston is fucking sedge +twigs. its garbage.
generally speaking, low bulk density, high pore space is always better than heavier denser soil. always.
why? because oxygen is better able to diffuse throughout the soil.
low bulk density high pore space mediums generally will not hold much water with respect to air volume so they need watering more frequently than a heavier mix. this changes with the particle sizes of the mixture, as smaller particles tend to create mixes with higher perched water tables.
the perched water table is simply how hight he water will wick up the container given ample watering.
small particles create small pore spaces, small pores create more surface tension, and more surface tension means water can move farther up. think of a candle wick verses a bike chain... or something. idk.
high tension mediums also effectivly compete with the plant rootsystem for water. meaning the plant will stress at higher soil moisture contents than it would in a low tension mix like coir or peat lite. low tension mediums are also said to make it easier for plants to transport nutrients from the medium, but im not 100% down with that.
anyway, larger pores, larger particles make better soil mediums because they hold more air, diffuse air more easily, and drain better by virtue of a lower surface tension and low perched water table.
heres the thing though. organic soil amendments are usually not super light and fluffy AND you need to add lots to get good nutrient density into the soil, so its going to be harder to get super light and fluffy high pore space soil mediums that are amended properly with only organics.
say you start with classic Cornell peat lite... 50/50 spag. sifted peat and medium coarse perlite. to get that to perform well you will need to add shit loads of manure, carbonate, rock phosphate and what ever else organic matter you want. this is going to make that light mix less light and less good.
you could try to simply water in the organic material, but idk how much work is involved in creating organic soupy fertilizer mixtures verses just amending the soil with shit and calcium phosphate etc. moreover, it stands to reason you will bulk out your soil by feeding with a soupy mess... but who knows.
low bulk density high pore space mediums work best with 100% water soluble fertilizers, like the sort you buy at a hydro store or CRF beads or topdressings.
it allows you much much much greater control over the nutrient regime, and allows you to react to changing conditions as they appear.... higher air temps often require modest reductions in soil medium salinity owing to drought stress.
my target bulk density is always around .1 - .2 grams per cubic centimeter. it varies as the perlite i can get at a decent price is always changing cost. i have not done peat lite in years since they stoped selling the good fertiloam canadian spagnum a few years back. the only shit ive seen in houston is fucking sedge +twigs. its garbage.
No such thing as a one mix does it all. That's why cannabis growers have about 20 different nutrients for various stages of growth. Plants no matter what kind they are, demand different nutrients in different life stages. I have and use about 10 different nutrients to care for my plants from seedlings to fruiting. And they all serve different vitamins in different quantites.
I see what your saying Cobra, and even from the beginning I understood that different ferts would cover different nutrients for different parts of plant growth. I'm also interested in some of the growers who do manage to get a good harvest and healthy sized plant from a simple n-p-k fertilizer, be it a couple to several varying ratios through a plants life. I've just recently had recommendations for a 6-6-6 feet from the University Florida Dep. Of Agriculture, but I've always heard about 13-13-13's and 15-15-15' being thrown around as well. How do some of you feel about ratio ferts, either those specifically or in general?
you can indeed get away with a single nutrient profile.
cannabis growes are super probe to bullshit. believe me ive been a forum member on a cannabis site since like 2009.
yes ideally you give the plants only what they need when they need it, but you can simply give them more than they need the whole time with basically 0 negative down side except for wasted fertilizer.
some plants need little phosphate during one part of its life cycle... and lots later on when ever, but you can just supply the phosphate from the get go.
if you read any of the greenhouse journals you will note how they stage out nutrient profiles for big crops like toms... week 1 you have 1 profile, week 3 you have another and so on untill like 7 nodes then you go to the final profile and stay there untill you finish your season.
why do they do this? to save money mostly. when your plants dont need 200 mg/l nitrogen, why give it to them? it will not be used, it will just be runoff into the environment.
what i do is keep the same nutrient profile, but simply dilute it or alternate tap water and full blast 2ec fertilizer solution.
it works just fine.
cannabis growes are super probe to bullshit. believe me ive been a forum member on a cannabis site since like 2009.
yes ideally you give the plants only what they need when they need it, but you can simply give them more than they need the whole time with basically 0 negative down side except for wasted fertilizer.
some plants need little phosphate during one part of its life cycle... and lots later on when ever, but you can just supply the phosphate from the get go.
if you read any of the greenhouse journals you will note how they stage out nutrient profiles for big crops like toms... week 1 you have 1 profile, week 3 you have another and so on untill like 7 nodes then you go to the final profile and stay there untill you finish your season.
why do they do this? to save money mostly. when your plants dont need 200 mg/l nitrogen, why give it to them? it will not be used, it will just be runoff into the environment.
what i do is keep the same nutrient profile, but simply dilute it or alternate tap water and full blast 2ec fertilizer solution.
it works just fine.
Ferts are high in sodium. At some point throwing all the ferts you want will result in burn and a huge sodium build up. Not to mention an overdose of N will make for a pore harvest. High N last year equated out to a lot of flower drop. Especially on the super hots.queequeg152 said:
As far as 13-13-13 are you talking dry or wet? Wet 13-13-13 is way to high in my book. Wet I never go above 5 on the N, P&K I don't worry as much about.DjBecker said:
SvtCobra said:
there is 0 sodium in pretty much 100% of all fertilizers.
excess nitrogen can lead to excess vegetative groth. thats why you dont add excessive nitrogen. idk what point you are tring to make.
plants like toms and peppers and cucumbers respond favorably to high rootzone salinity. the salinity forces the plants out of a vegative growth patern, into a more fruit oriented pattern. when i grow toms... you can actually SEE a difference in growth when it rains for a few days and the fertilizer charge is washed out. sucker growth explodes and tip growth gets nutty, flower trusses start growing foliage at the end too... its all quite easy to see.
with bell peppers and annums in general, low ec tends to favor very wide node spacing and flower droping. when you get the rootzone ec high enough, everything slows down, the nodes get tighter, flowers set, and new foliage slows down, node site shoots slow down too.
this isnt the case with super hots... from what i can tell, they just do their own thing regardless of the soil conductivity...they seemed to be productive at a very wide range of soil ec... 1.5 - 2-3ec.
they just start dropping droping flowers and stressing out when its hot.
i run my tomatos in excess of 3ec. annums require somewhat less
What do you think Sodium Nitrates are? I have tons of ferts that have sodium nitrate. So how can you tell me ferts do not have sodium? Sodium has been used as an N source for hundreds of years now. Miracle grow and osmocote is one of the most popular ferts used in both miracle grow soils and as slow release fert used by hundreds of growers on this forum. Guess what one of the ingredients is Sodium?! You need to read up a little more on ferts and the chemicals that make them what they are, because your dead wrong in your thinking. Many ferts use soy as a protein and amino acid souce. Ever had soy sauce before? Ya its salty for a reason. And I am not talking about growing tomatoes or anything else. I am talking peppers. You need to educate yourself before you step on someone.queequeg152 said:
Enjoy this article on how ferts have 0 sodium!
Soil provides sodium in plants. There is a natural accumulation of sodium in soil from fertilizers, pesticides, run off from shallow salt-laden waters and the breakdown of minerals which release salt. Excess sodium in soil gets taken up by plant roots and can cause serious vitality problems in your garden. Let’s learn more about sodium in plants.
What is Sodium?
The first question you need answered is, what is sodium? Sodium is a mineral that is generally not needed in plants. A few varieties of plants need sodium to help concentrate carbon dioxide, but most plants use only a trace amount to promote metabolism.
So where does all the salt come from? Sodium is found in many minerals and is released when they break down over time. The majority of sodium pockets in soil are from concentrated runoff of pesticides, fertilizers and other soil amendments. Fossil salt runoff is another cause of high salt content in soils. The sodium tolerance of plants is also tested in coastal areas with naturally salty ambient moisture and leaching from shorelines.
Effects of Sodium
The effects of sodium in plants start out similar to those of exposure to drought. It is important to note the sodium tolerance of your plants, especially if you live where groundwater run-off is high or in coastal regions where ocean spray drifts of salt to plants.
The problem with excess salt in soil is the effects of sodium on plants. Too much salt can cause toxicity but more importantly it reacts on plant tissues just as it does on ours. It produces an effect called osmotion, which causes important water in plant tissues to be diverted. Just as in our bodies, the effect causes tissues to dry out. In plants it can impair their ability to even uptake adequate moisture.
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Buildup of sodium in plants causes toxic levels, which cause stunted growth and arrested cell development. Sodium in soil is measured by extracting the water in a laboratory, but you can just watch your plant for wilting and reduced growth. In areas prone to dryness and high concentrations of limestone, these signs are likely to indicate a high salt concentration in soil.
Improving Sodium Tolerance of Plants
Sodium in soil that is not at toxic levels can easily be leached out by flushing the soil with fresh water. This requires applying more water than the plant needs so the excess waterrde leaches away the salt from the root zone.
Another method is called artificial drainage and is combined with leaching. This gives the excess salt laden water a drainage area where water can collect and be disposed of.
In commercial crops, farmers also use a method called managed accumulation. They create pits and drainage areas that funnel salty waters away from tender plant roots. The use of salt tolerant plants is also helpful in managing salty soils. They will gradually uptake sodium and absorb it.
I can only relate what I have used, i cannot say it is any better than anything else, but I have had, in my humble opinion, reasonable success.
For my raised bed, which is simply cinder blocks set on the ground forming a rectangular area in the backyard and then filled with soil, measuring 4 feet by 32 feet:
I initially (four years ago) bought a cubic yard of a 'growers mix' from a local landscape company. This was local soil (river bottom clay and silt) mixed with compost. It did not do exceptionally well the first year, sadly.
I have since amended it with about 50 bags of Miracle Grow Garden Soil. Now I just add the contents of the previous years containers each season, about a month before plant-out, adding Neptune's Harvest Crab Shell, some bone meal, and blood meal, and mixing well with the RotoTiller. I believe it is becoming a quite good medium, finally. This year I am trying out worm castings and Azomite, as well.
For containers, I have experimented with various soil-less types and mixtures thereof. I have settled on using a mix of sphagnum peat moss (ProMix), Fox Farm Happy Frog, and Fox Farm Ocean Forest, at a 12-10-6 ratio.
For nutrients; I do not begin my fertilization routine until a month to six weeks after plant-out. I have been doing the organic thing for two years now. I basically mix up five gallons of water with Alaska Fish Fertilizer and Neptune's Harvest Seaweed at about 80% of the recommended concentration and feed weekly. Containers generally do not get fertilized until mid-late season.
Anyway, that is my input.
Good luck with your grow this season.
For my raised bed, which is simply cinder blocks set on the ground forming a rectangular area in the backyard and then filled with soil, measuring 4 feet by 32 feet:
I initially (four years ago) bought a cubic yard of a 'growers mix' from a local landscape company. This was local soil (river bottom clay and silt) mixed with compost. It did not do exceptionally well the first year, sadly.
I have since amended it with about 50 bags of Miracle Grow Garden Soil. Now I just add the contents of the previous years containers each season, about a month before plant-out, adding Neptune's Harvest Crab Shell, some bone meal, and blood meal, and mixing well with the RotoTiller. I believe it is becoming a quite good medium, finally. This year I am trying out worm castings and Azomite, as well.
For containers, I have experimented with various soil-less types and mixtures thereof. I have settled on using a mix of sphagnum peat moss (ProMix), Fox Farm Happy Frog, and Fox Farm Ocean Forest, at a 12-10-6 ratio.
For nutrients; I do not begin my fertilization routine until a month to six weeks after plant-out. I have been doing the organic thing for two years now. I basically mix up five gallons of water with Alaska Fish Fertilizer and Neptune's Harvest Seaweed at about 80% of the recommended concentration and feed weekly. Containers generally do not get fertilized until mid-late season.
Anyway, that is my input.
Good luck with your grow this season.
SvtCobra said:
if you are using sodium nitrate as a fertilizer, you have some serious rethinking to do. try potassium nitrate, or calcium nitrate. both are cheap and easily available. sodium nitrate is for fire crackers.
i can promise you i know more about fertilizers and chemistry in general than yourself. not trying to be a cunt, but its just true.
sodium nitrate can be added in small quantities to bottled formulations to bump nitrogen without adding calcium or altering PH or potassium... but again, sodium is limited to like 20, 40 ppm maby so you cannot use very much of it. magnesium nitrate is used for the same reason, to push nitrogen up without altering undesirable elements.
i used to add calcium chloride to my nutrient profile. reason being i could bump calcium while keeping nitrogen low. can only add a fraction of a gram per gallon however. guess why? because plants do not tolerate chloride like they do sodium. 10 ppm is generally what is reccomended as a maximum chloride concentration for irrigation.
sodium nitrate and magnesium nitrate however ARE NOT GOOD FERTILZIERS. nobody spreads sodium nitrate on their fields. it would kill theiir crops and ruin their soil. magnesium nitrate is too expensive.
your quoted text is simply reiterating sodium is an issue with plants. why would you then use it as a fertilizer?
generally speaking, sodium should not exceed 20, maby 40 ppm for optimum growth. this is an issue with some coir brands... as they are washed with salt water, sodium being present in salt water along with other minerals.
sodium is a strong electrolyte. given equalmolar concentrations of say... sodium and calcium, the sodium increases the salinity FAR more... sodium is terrible for soil unless you are growing salt marshy plants accustomed to shore conditions...
ffs do not use sodium nitrate. use nitric acid and potassium nitrate if you have to.
Aye I really do like some of the discussions, as long as we can keep everything peaceful, this could be very helpful stuff lol.
Keeping things more approachable for newer growers like myself, in laymen's terms how do we feel these different fert mixes work for in the ground/container gardening? Mixes meaning the pre-built fertilizers or the ingredient by ingredient stuff for soil, for example I've heard a lot about enriching soil (worm castings, compost teas, different meals etc.) vs fertilizing the plant (hydroponic, synthetic, organic, with maxibloom, masterblend, N-P-K type things).
Also, what are some of you using that you feel is a staple that keeps giving you good results or a unique regiment to feed your plants that's giving you the aforementioned "success"?
Remember to keep it simple and civil lol, this information is good for everyone, especially our plants, so as long as your doing well, and you feel it can help others do well, it'd be great to hear it!
Keeping things more approachable for newer growers like myself, in laymen's terms how do we feel these different fert mixes work for in the ground/container gardening? Mixes meaning the pre-built fertilizers or the ingredient by ingredient stuff for soil, for example I've heard a lot about enriching soil (worm castings, compost teas, different meals etc.) vs fertilizing the plant (hydroponic, synthetic, organic, with maxibloom, masterblend, N-P-K type things).
Also, what are some of you using that you feel is a staple that keeps giving you good results or a unique regiment to feed your plants that's giving you the aforementioned "success"?
Remember to keep it simple and civil lol, this information is good for everyone, especially our plants, so as long as your doing well, and you feel it can help others do well, it'd be great to hear it!
I use Jiffy for the seedlings, upgraded to 1/1/1/1/1 peat/compost/worm castings/sand/perlite for transplant in pots.
Inside I use Fish and Poop fertilizer... 9-6-2 (diluted 50% as per instructions for small plants). Outside they get compost tea and an occasional foliar spray of epsom salts.
Inside I use Fish and Poop fertilizer... 9-6-2 (diluted 50% as per instructions for small plants). Outside they get compost tea and an occasional foliar spray of epsom salts.
this is a beginner topic and you have someone posting they use 10 different nutrients. 
Yes you can do this, yes you could see some benefits, is it worth the time / hassle? I know no one who uses that many different nutrient profiles. I can tell you that's not necessary. like que said you can provide an adequate level of nutrients all the time. the plant will only absorb nutrients as it can/needs.
you don't need to worry about sodium toxicity, any good fertilizer has veryyy small or no sodium at all. Salt build up will not be a problem(*note salts in this context is not sodium*) if you are fertilizing as directed by fertilizer / nutrient vendor aka don't over fertilize.
i'd say go ahead and ignore this topic and go the glogs section.
sort by start date, go back to 2015. read topics with at least 3 pages. read the last page to see what results they got and then go towards the front of the topic to see what stuff they used.
Or find someone you know can grow stuff that give good descriptions and take good pictures. like me, joyners, demonic, turbo, spiciegiest, paul, peter, PIC 1, etc and read the grow log start to finish.
Yes you can do this, yes you could see some benefits, is it worth the time / hassle? I know no one who uses that many different nutrient profiles. I can tell you that's not necessary. like que said you can provide an adequate level of nutrients all the time. the plant will only absorb nutrients as it can/needs.you don't need to worry about sodium toxicity, any good fertilizer has veryyy small or no sodium at all. Salt build up will not be a problem(*note salts in this context is not sodium*) if you are fertilizing as directed by fertilizer / nutrient vendor aka don't over fertilize.
i'd say go ahead and ignore this topic and go the glogs section.
sort by start date, go back to 2015. read topics with at least 3 pages. read the last page to see what results they got and then go towards the front of the topic to see what stuff they used.
Or find someone you know can grow stuff that give good descriptions and take good pictures. like me, joyners, demonic, turbo, spiciegiest, paul, peter, PIC 1, etc and read the grow log start to finish.