Foliar Feeding - Newb Needs Some Answers

[Derelict]

I have 45 plants of all types in 15 containers, and for two pepper types, all plants are now yellow.  Three of them (Red Savina) were, until a week ago, full and lush and filled with tiny fruit buds.  In a week, the stalks have gotten more spindly, large leaves have fallen off, and some of the fruit buds are falling to the ground.  I'm having a different problem with another two plants (Fatali), they have been chronically yellow for nearly a month.  All my other plants all seem to be doing fine.
 
I know foliar feeding is controversial here, but I'm going to try it.  But I'm having the darndest time figuring out the details, because most info on the forum here only provides a partial story.  So, friends, please help me with some basic questions.  I need answers to 7 basic questions.
 
1)  Foliar feeding is used to help with what appears to be ailing plants, fine.  Elsewhere I read that foliar feeding can be used in lieu of a regular watering.  Is there general agreement about this?
 
2)  If I am doing a foliar spray for the health of the plant, how much spray do I use?  If I am doing a foliar spray in lieu of a watering, how much spray do I use?  Are these the same?  One source said 6-7 plants per gallon, which makes sense for the watering.   But I don't know if the same amount is needed for a treatment for the health of the plant.
 
3) Is foliar feeding in lieu of a traditional watering a better solution when the plants are very bushy?  My three habanero plants grew bushy, not tall, so it's like a jungle underneath.
 
4) One commentator said that foliar feeding in lieu of watering can be weekly, week one with Epsom salts and week two with liquid fertilizer.  Is there general agreement with this?  Once the plants look healthy again, how often do you do the spray with Epsom salts?
 
4)  One source said to use 2 tablespoons per gallon of water, another source said to use one tablespoon, another said to use less than the recommended.  What is the general sentiment here?
 
6) Do the undersides of the leaves need to be sprayed?  Or just the tops?
 
7)  For those who are doing extensive spraying in lieu of a regular watering, e.g., for 45 plants like I have, what do you use for a sprayer?  Using an ordinary hand sprayer makes the job nearly impossible.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Tom

 

[Bicycle808]

I have sprayed water/Epsom salt solution at a 1tbls/1gallon ratio. It has never hurt anything as far as I can tell, but it's never worked any miracles, either. Deeper, darker green leaves, for sure. But I don't think you're gonna get a Lazarus effect, either.

That being said, based on the symptoms you've mentioned, I think you're either overwatering, or using soul/media that is prone to getting soggy. Yellowness, dropped leaves...If my suspicions are, managing moisture will probably do so much more for your plants than foliar spray will.

 

[Derelict]

I have sprayed water/Epsom salt solution at a 1tbls/1gallon ratio. It has never hurt anything as far as I can tell, but it's never worked any miracles, either. Deeper, darker green leaves, for sure. But I don't think you're gonna get a Lazarus effect, either.

That being said, based on the symptoms you've mentioned, I think you're either overwatering, or using soul/media that is prone to getting soggy. Yellowness, dropped leaves...If my suspicions are, managing moisture will probably do so much more for your plants than foliar spray will.

 

Well, I am most certainly not overwatering, and the best proof is that the plants in adjacent barrels are doing just fine. 
 
Can you comment more about the other questions, or at least how much coverage you use when you spray?

 

[floricole]

When you srpay you must wet the underside of the leaf but do not drift.
 

The nutrients contained in the fertilizers penetrate the leaves through tiny openings called stomata. Since most of these openings are on the underside of the leaves, it is important to keep this in mind when applying fertilizer, and spray the underside of the foliage.
Foliar fertilizer is best absorbed if applied early in the morning or in the evening. The cooler air and higher relative humidity at those times encourage the stomata to open up.
Misting is the best method for foliar feeding because it is easier for the fine droplets to penetrate the stomata. To help the fertilize adhere to the foliage, you can add a few drops of liquid dish soap (one to two drops to 4.5 litres of fertilizer solution).

from http://m.espacepourlavie.ca/en/foliar-feeding

 

 

[solid7]

In lieu of regular watering?  Hardly.  If we're being analytical about it, does water stick to plants?  Is there a well of zero gravity around the plant?  Logic tells me that nutrients fall off of the leaves, back into the media.  Additionally, logic tells me that leaves will never do a better job of absorbing nutrients, than roots. (whose actual job that is)  Even so, nutrients move through the main stem of the plant, like a straw, out TO the leaves.  So sprayed nutrients are, at best, localized.
.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again...  If you try to make your plants look prettier by foliar feeding, then you're masking the real problem, and it's going to come back, and back, and back.  A healthy plant that has all the basics for growth, NEVER needs foliar feeding.  Yes, you read it right.  I said NEVER.
.
If you can't green up your plants from the roots, then foliar feeding is not your answer.  At best, foliar is a supplement.  But it's a ninja level trick, for people who have already proven that they can grow good plants, and are trying to get that extra 1%.  It's not a long term strategy.
.
Derelict, you have been given lots of advice on remediating a plant that is exhibiting poor growth.  Now, it seems like you're just taking short cuts.  I'm wondering what you've done up to this point.  Did you actually try to fix what you have, based on advice given, or have you just been chasing down alternate strategies? 
.
There is no general concensus around here on much of anything.  But I'd be inclined to let you go with a foliar feeding strategy.  It would be great for the forum to be able to view your results, vs that of others who fixed their issues the right way.  Please document your results. 
 

 

[Derelict]

In lieu of regular watering?  Hardly.  If we're being analytical about it, does water stick to plants?  Is there a well of zero gravity around the plant?  Logic tells me that nutrients fall off of the leaves, back into the media.  Additionally, logic tells me that leaves will never do a better job of absorbing nutrients, than roots. (whose actual job that is)  Even so, nutrients move through the main stem of the plant, like a straw, out TO the leaves.  So sprayed nutrients are, at best, localized.
.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again...  If you try to make your plants look prettier by foliar feeding, then you're masking the real problem, and it's going to come back, and back, and back.  A healthy plant that has all the basics for growth, NEVER needs foliar feeding.  Yes, you read it right.  I said NEVER.
.
If you can't green up your plants from the roots, then foliar feeding is not your answer.  At best, foliar is a supplement.  But it's a ninja level trick, for people who have already proven that they can grow good plants, and are trying to get that extra 1%.  It's not a long term strategy.
.
Derelict, you have been given lots of advice on remediating a plant that is exhibiting poor growth.  Now, it seems like you're just taking short cuts.  I'm wondering what you've done up to this point.  Did you actually try to fix what you have, based on advice given, or have you just been chasing down alternate strategies? 
.
There is no general concensus around here on much of anything.  But I'd be inclined to let you go with a foliar feeding strategy.  It would be great for the forum to be able to view your results, vs that of others who fixed their issues the right way.  Please document your results. 
 

 
I was thinking about you when I asked the question.  But both plants changed quickly so I decided to give it a try.  I know about your objections.  If this year is still an experimental year for me (I was hoping it wouldn't be but it is) then I want to try out different things.
 

 

[solid7]

 
I was thinking about you when I asked the question.  But both plants changed quickly so I decided to give it a try.  I know about your objections.  If this year is still an experimental year for me (I was hoping it wouldn't be but it is) then I want to try out different things.
 

 
Like I said, document your results.
.
Smart money would be to do a side-by-side of one method vs another. (in the spirit of "experimentation")  But that's for you to decide.

 

[juanitos]

1)  Foliar feeding is used to help with what appears to be ailing plants, fine.  Elsewhere I read that foliar feeding can be used in lieu of a regular watering.  Is there general agreement about this?
No, plants have roots for a reason they are specialized in absorbing water and nutrients. Leaves are optimized for photosynthesis, transpiration.
 
3) Is foliar feeding in lieu of a traditional watering a better solution when the plants are very bushy?  My three habanero plants grew bushy, not tall, so it's like a jungle underneath.
no, most water and nutrients are absorbed from the roots. the plant has a system for delivering these already setup called xylem. it is a part of each branch / stem.
 
4) One commentator said that foliar feeding in lieu of watering can be weekly, week one with Epsom salts and week two with liquid fertilizer.  Is there general agreement with this?  Once the plants look healthy again, how often do you do the spray with Epsom salts?
epsom salt(MgSO4) is not a complete nutrient it can help magnesium and sulfur deficiency, a liquid fert with more nutrients is better. (miracle gro plant food, dyna gro foliage pro, masterblend tomato, etc) 
eventually the foliar fed will drip down to the soil so roots can absorb it, why not just apply it directly to the roots which are specialized in absorbing nutrients?
 
4)  One source said to use 2 tablespoons per gallon of water, another source said to use one tablespoon, another said to use less than the recommended.  What is the general sentiment here?
epsom salt 1.5 grams / gallon is what's used for masterblend mix. There is not a "standard" mix rate which is why you see people recommending different amounts.
 
7)  For those who are doing extensive spraying in lieu of a regular watering, e.g., for 45 plants like I have, what do you use for a sprayer?  Using an ordinary hand sprayer makes the job nearly impossible.
foliar feeding is mostly advertised as a side thing, not replacement for normal watering. Some people may live in areas with frequent rain that don't even need to do much watering.
you can use a drip system and use micro sprayers. or an siphon mixer attached to a normal yard sprinkler. 

 

[Derelict]

 
Like I said, document your results.
.
Smart money would be to do a side-by-side of one method vs another. (in the spirit of "experimentation")  But that's for you to decide.

 
What else would you recommend?  Thinking back, this is one of the pots where I used the substandard potting soil from Kellogg (mostly bark) but the chinense plant (Red Savina) appeared to thrive anyway.  There are three plants in a faux barrel container.  Could the simple answer be a lack of nutrients and extra feeding?  I've been trying to avoid that.  Again, this one changed quickly from my most vigorous plant to one that got scraggly.

 

[Derelict]

4) One commentator said that foliar feeding in lieu of watering can be weekly, week one with Epsom salts and week two with liquid fertilizer.  Is there general agreement with this?  Once the plants look healthy again, how often do you do the spray with Epsom salts?
epsom salt(MgSO4) is not a complete nutrient it can help magnesium and sulfur deficiency, a liquid fert with more nutrients is better. (miracle gro plant food, dyna gro foliage pro, masterblend tomato, etc) 
eventually the foliar fed will drip down to the soil so roots can absorb it, why not just apply it directly to the roots which are specialized in absorbing nutrients?
 

 
Thanks for the detailed answer, I understand your position.  Can you tell me, then, based on your own experience, when you apply Epsom salts using a spray?  And how frequently do you do it when needed?  Or consider the same questions if you're adding it to a liquid fertilizer.  Thanks
 

 

[solid7]

 
What else would you recommend?  Thinking back, this is one of the pots where I used the substandard potting soil from Kellogg (mostly bark) but the chinense plant (Red Savina) appeared to thrive anyway.  There are three plants in a faux barrel container.  Could the simple answer be a lack of nutrients and extra feeding?  I've been trying to avoid that.  Again, this one changed quickly from my most vigorous plant to one that got scraggly.

 
Much like a couple of other threads around here, this is the classic sign of a mix that either has compacted, or is overwatered, or both.  Compaction often happens due to overwatering, over time, as opposed to just being a standalone issue.
.
This is the part of troubleshooting that I hate the most.  We're kind of all over the place right now, from this to that, and back again.  The simplest and most conclusive way to arrive at a course of action, is to take one or two of your affected plants, and do it your way.  Take one or two more, and do it the way that you've been recommended.  See which one works better.  Boom.  Case closed.

 

[juanitos]

 
Thanks for the detailed answer, I understand your position.  Can you tell me, then, based on your own experience, when you apply Epsom salts using a spray?  And how frequently do you do it when needed?  Or consider the same questions if you're adding it to a liquid fertilizer.  Thanks
 

 
i don't do any foliar feeding.
 
With liquid feeding you can add it to every watering, every day, i do. (its on an automated system)
with hydroponic systems where roots are constantly in solution like kratky or dwc the nutrients are always available in solution.
 
Generally you should follow the suggested rates per manufacturer of your nutrients.
Since epsom salt is normal product they don't specify rates for peppers. but you can follow the masterblend recommendation of 1.5g / gallon and use it all the time without any fear.
 
=======
 
If you are doing soil building, you will have built your soil to provide a source of magnesium and sulfur so there is no need to do any extra feeding.

 

[solid7]

 
If you are doing soil building, you will have built your soil to provide a source of magnesium and sulfur so there is no need to do any extra feeding.

 
Or at the very least, supply this with a fertilizer that is complete, plus trace elements.  Nothing wrong with either approach.

 

[CaneDog]

One thing I really like about THP is seeing people continue to take the time and effort to respond to questions that get asked and answered repeatedly, but are still new questions to the people asking them.  It's a crappy feeling when there's something wrong with your plants and you don't know what to do about it and I think a lot of the experienced growers here still remember that.  
 
There's some good feedback above already, but I'll add a link to an article I've posted before because I think it could be helpful here.  It's a concise article covering applicable aspects of foliar feeding and it was written fairly recently by someone with legitimate credentials. There's a lot of bad information kicked around forums along with the good and it's easy to see how growers get misdirected reading different things in different places.
 
This first link provides authentication for the author - http://extension.udel.edu/employee/emmalea-ernest/
 
And this is the article she wrote on foliar feeding - https://extension.udel.edu/weeklycropupdate/?p=8837
 
Good luck!  And definitely help others by posting about your results.  Too few people actually do that.

 

[Derelict]

 
Much like a couple of other threads around here, this is the classic sign of a mix that either has compacted, or is overwatered, or both.  Compaction often happens due to overwatering, over time, as opposed to just being a standalone issue.
.
This is the part of troubleshooting that I hate the most.  We're kind of all over the place right now, from this to that, and back again.  The simplest and most conclusive way to arrive at a course of action, is to take one or two of your affected plants, and do it your way.  Take one or two more, and do it the way that you've been recommended.  See which one works better.  Boom.  Case closed.

 

OK, beyond the foliar feeding with Epsom salts, what would be your Plan B?  No time to uproot and repot existing plants that are already 30" tall.

 

[Derelict]

Good luck!  And definitely help others by posting about your results.  Too few people actually do that.

 
Thank you for the info, I'll review it tonight.  And rest assured, I'm the type who loves to compose thoughtful answers.  I just need to learn more this year.  Cheers --
 

 

[solid7]

No time to uproot and repot existing plants that are already 30" tall.

 
OK, if you say so.  You know best.

 

[luvmesump3pp3rz]

without reading every word of this thread i will throw this in. as soon as you mentioned Kellogg's potting soil it was an ah-ha moment for me. that is most likely your problem. i use mostly miracle grow because of quality/availability/price is good. i let this sales girl at home depot push a bag of kellogg's on me and i have 1 pepper plant and a couple cucumber plants in containers and they are not doing as well as my other plants in better potting mix. lesson learned. i have never sprayed my plants with any nutrients. that`s what the roots are for. 

 

[BDASPNY]

One thing I really like about THP is seeing people continue to take the time and effort to respond to questions that get asked and answered repeatedly, but are still new questions to the people asking them.  It's a crappy feeling when there's something wrong with your plants and you don't know what to do about it and I think a lot of the experienced growers here still remember that.  
 
There's some good feedback above already, but I'll add a link to an article I've posted before because I think it could be helpful here.  It's a concise article covering applicable aspects of foliar feeding and it was written fairly recently by someone with legitimate credentials. There's a lot of bad information kicked around forums along with the good and it's easy to see how growers get misdirected reading different things in different places.
 
This first link provides authentication for the author - http://extension.udel.edu/employee/emmalea-ernest/
 
And this is the article she wrote on foliar feeding - https://extension.udel.edu/weeklycropupdate/?p=8837
 
Good luck!  And definitely help others by posting about your results.  Too few people actually do that.

 
 
this guy gets it.  the people here  are  always helpful even when the question has been addressed many times.

 

[Derelict]

 
 
this guy gets it.  the people here  are  always helpful even when the question has been addressed many times.

 

I totally agree.  Since I'm new to this, I'll say that even if the topic was addressed 3 times over the past 5 years, in detail, it still never hurts to communicate with a newb who asks his own questions in a certain fashion.  For that, I am eternally grateful to y'all here on THP.