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seeds Germinating old seeds

CaneDog said:
To my understanding, preventing GSOD/hypoxia is the biggest challenge in germinating old seeds that have retained some level of viability.  The second is providing simple sugars, but this isn't always needed and it can easily create a contamination disaster outside sterile conditions.
 
Hyper-oxygenation versus hypoxia can best be achieved by an 18-24 hour soak in a diluted H2O2 solution.  Gibberellic acid will accelerate germination in seeds that are viable, but TMK it won't increase viability, i.e., you'll get the seeds that would have germinated anyway, sooner, but not necessarily more.  Logically, sooner is better, at least generally, in that there's less time for mistakes like seeds drying out or for pathogen development that might hinder germination.  KNO2 treatment has a chemical scarification effect, which can be helpful with certain types of seeds, and TMK it can assist with breaking dormancy.  My only concern with these methods would be using them instead of addressing hypoxia or if they created additional stress on the seeds in some fashion. 
 
If I were trying to germinate these, I'd give them 20+/- hours in a solution of 3% H2O2 to distilled water at somewhere around a 1:9 ratio and then put them in a rockwool cube in a container to maintain humidity and provide as sanitary an environment as possible.  Scottex isn't bad, but it's more prone to sub-optimal air/moisture conditions, dry-out, and probably pathogens, too.  I have nothing against the KNO3 or even the GA, though I never use GA, I just don't think they directly address the key challenge of old seeds so they wouldn't be at the top of my "must do" list.  
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Interesting. I'll probably try to germinate them after germinating all the other seeds for the season. Will have to clean out one of the mini greenhouses and keep the seeds in their own dedicated greenhouse.
 
Would temperature be an issue? I've been germinating chinenses at 87f with no issues.
 
I don't remember ever reading a paper about optimal pepper seed temperatures specifically for old peppers or generally discussing whether more or less heat becomes optimal for older seeds.  I suspect, without knowing, that the ideal heat remains the same.  The concerns I think would be what's best for breaking dormancy of that particular variety and, especially with older seeds, encouraging old and likely compromised enzymes to rapidly convert starches into simple sugars to support growth.   
 
I've read studies suggesting that Annuum and Chinense optimal germination temperatures are higher than their optimal growth and production temperatures and might be into the 90F's, but I don't know that I'd push it.  I can see your seeds aren't pubenscens and they don't look like wild varieties, which eliminates two main varieties that prefer somewhat cooler germination temperatures. I suppose this is my long-winded way of getting around to saying I don't really have any special information about temperature for old seeds, but your choice of 87F is centered in the > 85F < 90F range where I'd feel most comfortable.
 
An option, if they haven't budged after a reasonable wait time, is to day/night cycle them letting them cool a little "overnight" before heating them back up to temp the next day.  Not a big swing, but maybe down to 80F or so might be enough.
 
Im no expert but if theyve been stored properly and kept dry i guess its possible. Would be really cool if they germinate!

Edit: Missed your comment on page one. So it worked!
 
HatchChileFestival said:
Well, I am basing my recommendation for Ga-3 on this https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323020599_Influence_of_Germination_Aids_on_Germination_of_Different_Capsicum_sp - among other articles. It was just the first one I found but everything I read so far seems to support that Ga-3 enhances not only faster germination but also the amount of germinated seeds.
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If this is a response to my post, no criticism of your post was intended. On the contrary, I'd like to see Chris' seeds germinate and I think it's great that you and others do too and are suggesting ideas. 
 
My point is simply that while either GA-3 or KNO3 may help, older seeds are prone to hypoxia and I believe that to be the predominant hurdle in getting them to germinate.  I believe failing to address that is a significant concern.  And while the authors of the cited article extrapolate their results to older seeds, not 1 of the 600 seeds in the study was anything other than the best selection of the most recent crop.  Its unreasonable to extrapolate the results to older seeds without considering what new variables may be introduced, in this case the predisposition to hypoxia.  By analogy, running wind-sprints may improve athletic performance significantly, but if you have severe asthma that's probably your first and primary concern.
 
I found the results of the paper very interesting, though, as I hadn't previously seen any reliable indication GA-3 improved total germination %.  Their variety selection - including pubescens and ulupica - was also a surprise.
 
Here's a research paper discussing H2O2 use countering hypoxia in old and large seeds:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eecd/86a90e751420dbe5e1aa43d15ac879915286.pdf
 
Good luck Chris. I hope they sprout for you however you get them too!
 
ChrisH said:
Im no expert but if theyve been stored properly and kept dry i guess its possible. Would be really cool if they germinate!

Edit: Missed your comment on page one. So it worked!
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They were stored in my grandmas basement for 45+ years, so who knows, the packet showed absolutely no sign of any water damage (although that could have been and gone in the last 45 years, lol).
 
No, the germination was not successful but I soaked them for too long in kno3, and neglected them, which won't happen with the next attempt.
 
CaneDog said:
 
If this is a response to my post, no criticism of your post was intended. On the contrary, I'd like to see Chris' seeds germinate and I think it's great that you and others do too and are suggesting ideas. 
 
My point is simply that while either GA-3 or KNO3 may help, older seeds are prone to hypoxia and I believe that to be the predominant hurdle in getting them to germinate.  I believe failing to address that is a significant concern.  And while the authors of the cited article extrapolate their results to older seeds, not 1 of the 600 seeds in the study was anything other than the best selection of the most recent crop.  Its unreasonable to extrapolate the results to older seeds without considering what new variables may be introduced, in this case the predisposition to hypoxia.  By analogy, running wind-sprints may improve athletic performance significantly, but if you have severe asthma that's probably your first and primary concern.
 
I found the results of the paper very interesting, though, as I hadn't previously seen any reliable indication GA-3 improved total germination %.  Their variety selection - including pubescens and ulupica - was also a surprise.
 
Here's a research paper discussing H2O2 use countering hypoxia in old and large seeds:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eecd/86a90e751420dbe5e1aa43d15ac879915286.pdf
 
Good luck Chris. I hope they sprout for you however you get them too!
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Thanks for all the info, Cane. I have a few seeds left so will try multiple methods but am leaning towards hydrogen peroxide.
I have never used rock wool before so will run a test with other seeds first.
Honestly, I did very little research regarding this. Hypoxia seems like the main concern due to the age of seeds. Growth hormones and kno3 won't necessarily address the hypoxia issue.
 
H2o2 would separate into hydrogen + oxygen very quickly, once exposed to oxygen, correct? Should I put the seeds in some kind of container, add water and finally add h2o2 for the soak? I want to get as much oxygen into the seeds as possible with the h2o2.
 
Also, is Chris germinating seeds too? I am op ,lol.
 
I'm not sure if this is on par with hoping for someone to awaken from a 40 year coma, but I'm definitely hopeful. If you manage it, surely it'll be a record.
 
SuburbanFowl said:
 
Thanks for all the info, Cane. I have a few seeds left so will try multiple methods but am leaning towards hydrogen peroxide.
I have never used rock wool before so will run a test with other seeds first.
Honestly, I did very little research regarding this. Hypoxia seems like the main concern due to the age of seeds. Growth hormones and kno3 won't necessarily address the hypoxia issue.
 
H2o2 would separate into hydrogen + oxygen very quickly, once exposed to oxygen, correct? Should I put the seeds in some kind of container, add water and finally add h2o2 for the soak? I want to get as much oxygen into the seeds as possible with the h2o2.
 
Also, is Chris germinating seeds too? I am op ,lol.
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Haha.  Sorry about that, SF!  :) 
 
One thing I took from the study was that it's a very small ratio of H2O2 that's needed. They got maximum results upon reaching a concentration level of 1:19 and the results stayed equally productive up to 1:9, being 0.30%, the highest concentration they tested.  I don't remember that they used sealed containers - and I've never been concern with it except more recently to prevent a spill. I usually mix the solution then simply drop in the seed, unless there's some special reason like scarification or sanitizing them where I might give certain seeds a short intro period of more concentrated or even pure 3% H2O2.
 
HCF's post and link got my thinking about the GA-3 though.  I may have to give it a try sometime just to see the results for myself.  It's pretty much an unknown to me except for reading about it.
 
Ruid said:
I'm not sure if this is on par with hoping for someone to awaken from a 40 year coma, but I'm definitely hopeful. If you manage it, surely it'll be a record.
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Someone awakening from a 40 year coma is probably more likely. Maybe I can play "One" by Metallica on repeat to the seeds for the next 6 months as a form of scarification.
 
CaneDog said:
 
Haha.  Sorry about that, SF!  :)
 
One thing I took from the study was that it's a very small ratio of H2O2 that's needed. They got maximum results upon reaching a concentration level of 1:19 and the results stayed equally productive up to 1:9, being 0.30%, the highest concentration they tested.  I don't remember that they used sealed containers - and I've never been concern with it except more recently to prevent a spill. I usually mix the solution then simply drop in the seed, unless there's some special reason like scarification or sanitizing them where I might give certain seeds a short intro period of more concentrated or even pure 3% H2O2.
 
HCF's post and link got my thinking about the GA-3 though.  I may have to give it a try sometime just to see the results for myself.  It's pretty much an unknown to me except for reading about it.
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No worries. Thanks so much, I'll post again when I attempt to germinate.
 
Ruid said:
I'm not sure if this is on par with hoping for someone to awaken from a 40 year coma, but I'm definitely hopeful. If you manage it, surely it'll be a record.
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I awakened 25+ year old seeds once - those were not capsicum but everyone back then also told me chances would be close to zip. No, I did not even know about Ga-3 or H2O2 and other things back then. However, I knew about distilled water. So, whichever preparation you use - use distilled water to make the solution. It takes a lot of patience and I remember just getting 3 seeds to germinate out of around 50 within 3 months. AFAIR the first one sprouted after about a month. You will also have to watch for mold etc. during that time period. And remove as much as possible of the moldy material if any shows. I prefer the germination bag method with about 10 folded layers of Kleenex on a plastic spoon. The spoon helps to keep the plastic from direct contact with the seeds if properly placed in the plastic bag. Also, the plastic bag keeps humidity high and greatly reduces chances of seed completely drying out. Plus, you will only have to spray very (!) little water maybe once every 3 weeks to keep up the moisture - thus reducing the chance of contamination with spores and bacteria. Which - together with using distilled water - is very important for long term germination projects, IMHO.
 
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