Heat vs Pain in Hot Peppers

I haven't taste tested a ton of different chiles but some have.  AlabamaJack came up with what he felt was "The Perfect Burn", a blend of various chiles, each with it's own profile that was designed to hit all of the "high points".  While there may be "little evidence to suggest how they act", there is testimony and anecdotal evidence from people who know what's what with chiles that suggests different chiles which contain different ratios of capsaicinoids make the mouth/tongue/body "feel" differently.     
 
 
The "caning" and 'back-o-ma-throat" was referencing a certain Aussie Hippy that posts lots of pod reviews and likes to use terminology like that to describe the sensations the chiles were creating. 
 
cross-posting?  What's HOOEY?  or is that supposed to be HOOREY!
 
The Hot Pepper said:
 
That's a bunch oh of hooey! Has to do with the size of the pepper, the type of pepper and cap %, and how you chew it. There is no pepper that just hits the back of the throat. No way. It can, the way you chew it, but that doesn't make it a back of the throat burner only.

That's like saying this honey is sweet but only on the left side of the tongue.
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12 months ago I`d have said you were right, as it is logical and reasonable to think this. I would not agree with you now, though. Different peppers burn differently and in different places, predominantly. No, no pepper burns just the back of the throat, but some burn there predominantly and reproducibly so. 
 
It could have something to do with how you chew it, but I doubt that`s a significant variable. The problem is that there are heat detecting receptors everywhere, not just on the tongue. Sweet-detection is done on a specific part of the tongue and nowhere else. 
 
If you just take the TRPV1 receptor, there are potentially hundreds if not thousands of variations of TRPV1 (splice variants). They might act differently, but nobody knows. Nor does anyone know the physiological response, in humans, of different capsaicinoids in different parts of the mouth or GI tract. 
 
pure crystalline capsaicin powder can be eaten straight and the mouth will not "feel" anything.  Once it hits the stomach....WATCH OUT!  Cramps, vomiting, intense abdominal pain..."but it didn't feel like anything when I ate it!" 
 
salsalady said:
pure crystalline capsaicin powder can be eaten straight and the mouth will not "feel" anything.  Once it hits the stomach....WATCH OUT!  Cramps, vomiting, intense abdominal pain..."but it didn't feel like anything when I ate it!" 
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It`s called bioavailability. As capsaicin isn't very soluble at all in aqueous solution (spit), you can swallow it without it becoming available for the receptors to detect. In your stomach you have ways of getting fat-soluble molecules into solution (bile acids) and making them available for the receptors to detect. It`s kinda like dissolving capsaicin in dilute detergent and then drinking it. You`d feel that in the mouth.
 
"Methow" is a little town with a zip code and nothing else that's about 12 miles south of here.  "The Methow" is the terminology or abbreviation for "The Methow Valley", an ~40 mile long river valley where Scovie and CJ, myself and my family resides.  It's a minute, but very important difference.  ;)   
 
I'm sure there's hooey in Methow, but I wouldn't know.  Methow is only a zip code we drive through while getting out of the Methow.
 
 
 
 
Here in the Methow, we call hooey what it is......"male bovine excrement"....
 
 
 
 
But, Boss, you didn't say what was "MBE" aka "hooey"... my post or previous ones.   
 
 
 
 
 
(ps- Methow is pronounced "MET-how"...... not "METH-ow"  :)
 
I have to agree on the heat vs pain. I have a choc scorp that doesn't give the sensation of heat. It goes straight to a pins and needles pain on various parts of my mouth. As the pain resides, the pain slowly fades off, never giving me a hot or warm sensation. Other pods give me that so hot it hurts feeling, but this choc scorp is different. This is the only pepper i have ever had do this to me. It's also very bitter and not good tasting. It really is just pure pain.
Now, since the first choc scorp pod, i have begin to notice when there is heat mixed with pain, or just heat.
I understand completely Nigel.
 
I know for fact the condition your mouth is in prior to ingesting a pepper makes a HUGE difference. I've had instances where I ate half a pepper one day, the other half of the same pepper the next, but it felt completely different. One half was easy to deal with, while the other half of the same pepper felt like someone dropped a napalm bomb on my tongue. I figured out that things like chips, sunflower seeds, or anything salty enough to disturb the usual coating on your tongue will give you a new experience when you chomp down on a Moruga. Also any acidic fruit, or candy like Jolly Ranchers or anything high in ascorbic acid really cleans off that palate leaving it vulnerable to a good searing.
 
I don't how high your personal tolerance is, if you have three or four Jolly Ranchers, or a bag of sea salt and vinegar chips and ate something as subtle as an orange hab, your tongue will be trying to crawl out of your mouth.
 
Try it some time. It's an adventure.
 
~chomper, It's probably not the salt that makes the difference, but the OIL in the chips, seeds, etc, that makes the difference in how Hot things seem.   
 
edit- I agree that the mouth's environment significantly alters how it "feels" peppers, sauces, how HOT is it, the last one wasn't this Hot.... etc...
 
Here is a very cool article that I think you might enjoy.

"Several capsaicin-like compounds found in chiles have slight structural variations in the hydrocarbon tail, which changes their ability to bind to the receptors and their ability to penetrate layers of receptors on the tongue, mouth, and throat. That may explain why some chiles burn in the mouth, while others burn deep in the throat."

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/capsaicin.shtml
 
Sm1nts2escape said:
Here is a very cool article that I think you might enjoy. "Several capsaicin-like compounds found in chiles have slight structural variations in the hydrocarbon tail, which changes their ability to bind to the receptors and their ability to penetrate layers of receptors on the tongue, mouth, and throat. That may explain why some chiles burn in the mouth, while others burn deep in the throat." http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/capsaicin.shtml
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Thanks for that article!
 
Maybe it's not hooey!
 
Sm1nts2escape said:
Here is a very cool article that I think you might enjoy. "Several capsaicin-like compounds found in chiles have slight structural variations in the hydrocarbon tail, which changes their ability to bind to the receptors and their ability to penetrate layers of receptors on the tongue, mouth, and throat. That may explain why some chiles burn in the mouth, while others burn deep in the throat." http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/features/capsaicin.shtml
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SEE!!! "Back-o-ma-throat" as described by Neil from Hippy Seed Co. is a recognized burn sensation!~!!!  :lol:
 
salsalady said:
~chomper, It's probably not the salt that makes the difference, but the OIL in the chips, seeds, etc, that makes the difference in how Hot things seem.   
 
edit- I agree that the mouth's environment significantly alters how it "feels" peppers, sauces, how HOT is it, the last one wasn't this Hot.... etc...
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Try something not oily, but salty. Chips seem to also have harsh edges that create micro abrasions on the inside of the cheeks. But I've noticed it with several things. I mentioned sunflower seeds. That salty coating really burns sometimes. However, I noticed I can have something deep fried like fish, and I'm not bothered so I don't think it's the oil.
 
My point is, we have a rash of people doing "reviews". I can bet none of them start with a solid baseline regarding what they had dietarily prior to ingesting the pepper in the review. But in all reality I know from personal experience, that makes all the difference in the world. The story I relayed about eating half a pepper two days in a row wasn't anecdotal, I experience it. I had half the pepper on day one. No problem. It was good. Just for clarification, it was a Naga Morich. The second day while I was out and about, I was given a few Jolly Ranchers, and I had probably 4 of them (green apple  believe). I noticed my tongue felt a little raw, but it didn't hurt. I went home, had dinner, and decided I didn't want to waste the other half of the pepper, so down it went. It was insane. My tongue hurt so bad it cramped. it was NOTHING like the previous night.
 
Bear in mind, I have eaten literally hundreds if not thousands of super hot peppers. I don't mean with dinner, I mean grab and go.They are snacks. I know what they do, and how they feel intimately. And it all depends on what had I've prior to that pepper, even a day before. So when I see a reviewer touting that the tongue was getting hit harder than the "bakka ma throat", I have to wonder if that same pepper was had by the same person on a different day, would it would make a difference. I know I personally have a baseline that I've built over the years. I don't eat them for sport or show, I just like them. They are a routine part of my diet. But I know without a shadow of a doubt when I've had something earlier that took off my layer of protection. It's always a rush.
 
But with that being said, I do notice that certain peppers do hit slightly different areas. I cook a lot with peppers. I have a salsa recipe I used to use serranos in, but I swapped to habaneros because the habs leave the taste buds alone enough for people to enjoy the taste of the salsa, while whacking them good with a blast of heat behind the tongue. The serranos just overwhelmed most people right up front rendering them tasteless. But hell... The crowd I hang with is tasteless anyway :P
 
This is an interesting read -
 
http://www.dafml.unito.it/anatomy/ponzetto/nocicettori%20trps/capsaicin%20review.pdf
 
Notes:
 
Likewise, repeated application of capsaicin at short interstimulus
intervals produces a series of responses that decrease in magnitude, especially
between the first and second applications
 
This compound, produced by the cactuslike plant Euphorbia resinifera, is a far more potent irritant than other
 
phorbol esters.
 
Experimentally, they and others (Winter et al 1990) found that resiniferatoxin exhibits excitatory
 
and desensitizing properties similar to those exhibited by capsaicin but at 1000-
fold-lower doses.
 
douglah x butch T x Euphorbia resinifera   :fireball: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
JayT said:
The term its "hot" is somewhat misleading.  Spicy yes, hot no.
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Spanish speakers have two words for "hot:"
 
Picante for chiles 
caliente for flame
 
It's an important distinction
 
Very interesting read. A lot of it makes sense to me -- especially with regards to the two different sensations, it was one of the first thing I noticed this year now that I have a variety in the yard to munch on.
 
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