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Help! Is This a Magnesium Deficiency? or Nitrogen
- Thread starter DanMcG
- Start date
CaneDog
eXtreme
Looks like Mg to me. Nitrogen doesn't usually show with an interveinal pattern. Mg deficiencies often aren't a result of lack of Mg in the growth medium, but from one or more other causes that can prevent the plant from utilizing it properly. So, one might foliar feed Mg and get a positive short-term result that masks the real problem or water in Mg and perhaps not cure the problem or make it worse. If the plants are ready for pot-up, my experience has been that can often cure Mg issues when they're a result of watering/root problems.
If you're going to pot-up, you probably don't need to do anything else. If you're not going to pot-up, overly-wet or compacted soil is often a culprit. Adjusting watering and/or taking steps to de-compact/aerate the soil can help. One of the things I've done in the past is to take an object like a letter-opener and slide it carefully into the soil among the roots and gently twist is to create breathing space and loosed soil, doing this in a few places around the plant.
Don't expect the symptomatic leaves to improve; they may actually continue to look worse. Rather, watch whether healthy leaves begin to show symptoms. I'll often remove one or two lower leaves that continue to look worse despite the plant getting better, just because I don't like to have significantly compromised leaves on a plant as it might expose the plant to other concerns. If you decided to foliar spray, go relatively dilute, spray lightly, spray at light's out, and get up under the leaves. I think it's most often not necessary. I think adjusting nutrients is most often not necessary either.
Overall, I wouldn't be too concerned about the condition of your rocotos. I've had them show leaves exactly like this before, usually around the size of yours, and I've potted-up and been perfectly fine. Looks like you might have a little clawing of the lead tips happening too. What kind of a soil mix are you using?
If you're going to pot-up, you probably don't need to do anything else. If you're not going to pot-up, overly-wet or compacted soil is often a culprit. Adjusting watering and/or taking steps to de-compact/aerate the soil can help. One of the things I've done in the past is to take an object like a letter-opener and slide it carefully into the soil among the roots and gently twist is to create breathing space and loosed soil, doing this in a few places around the plant.
Don't expect the symptomatic leaves to improve; they may actually continue to look worse. Rather, watch whether healthy leaves begin to show symptoms. I'll often remove one or two lower leaves that continue to look worse despite the plant getting better, just because I don't like to have significantly compromised leaves on a plant as it might expose the plant to other concerns. If you decided to foliar spray, go relatively dilute, spray lightly, spray at light's out, and get up under the leaves. I think it's most often not necessary. I think adjusting nutrients is most often not necessary either.
Overall, I wouldn't be too concerned about the condition of your rocotos. I've had them show leaves exactly like this before, usually around the size of yours, and I've potted-up and been perfectly fine. Looks like you might have a little clawing of the lead tips happening too. What kind of a soil mix are you using?
Thanks for the great info CD, soil is a miracle grow potting soil, that was sterilized with heat. maybe the heat treatment caused some nutrient loss.( but I have no bugs in the house)
Maybe I'll back off on the once a week heavy water and do a couple light watering's and try your letter opener trick.
Maybe I should check ph?
Maybe I'll back off on the once a week heavy water and do a couple light watering's and try your letter opener trick.
Maybe I should check ph?
I agree with CaneDog. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to correct a deficiency without knowing the true cause. Luckily it's a young plant in a temporary pot so potting up in fresh soil is probably the best option. And yes, checking the PH is a good idea. The ph of miracle grow potting soil is just fine for peppers but knowing the ph of your water is a good idea. Municipal water is usually pretty close to neutral but if you're watering with well water or something that might be a different story.
CaneDog said:
Holy moly, I tried your letter opener trick with the handle of a thin fork and omg it felt like it was solid roots, cutting through them all the way down. it wasn't a good feeling LOL, I'll have to consider repotting tomorrow.
What is meant when the leaves are "clawing" I've never heard that one
DanMcG said:
Dan, give your plants more credit; I keep a 16" bamboo shishkabob stick around as a "cultivator", and I don't gently nuthin'. I shove that puppy in and work the soil open, all around the plant. If it's solid roots, the more they need worked IMO. if your medium is too compacted water will not drain and your plants can get the horticultural version of trenchfoot.
My plants take water better, get a good breath of air, and thrive with good cultivation. It's not like you need to do that every day or every week, just once a month or so.
But if your plants are rootbound, they may well benefit from a bigger surrounding.
And keep in mind: None of these other guys are like to have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night....
CaneDog
eXtreme
You bet Dan. Yep on Ed's comments and pH. I asked about the soil because if you're growing in MG soil (versus say peat and perlite) it's much less likely that your nutrients aren't there at this stage. My best guesses are too wet, compacted soil, pH (I kinda doubt it, but maybe - and always good to check), and perhaps over-fertilization. Of course, it could be a combination of a couple/few things not that far off that are ganging up on you.
Looking forward to more of your rocoto pics in the 'Pube's thread.
Looking forward to more of your rocoto pics in the 'Pube's thread.
CaneDog
eXtreme
Hey Dan. So, you gave the plant time to see if the condition persisted which is good, but unfortunately it sounds like it hasn't resolved. Here's how i look at your situation.
The leaves are most affected at the tip and margin, not more evenly throughout the leaves interveinally.
There's good green color in the bulk of the leaves.
The leaves are clawing somewhat, curling down and even rolling at the tips.
The plant looks otherwise pretty good.
Dark green and claw-down and necrosis at the leaf tips and margins can suggest over-fertilization, particularly nitrogen. With a MG soil base and weekly ferts, this could be an issue. Some chili varieties simply don't like as much fertilization as others, especially as younger plants. Nute build-up in the soil can affect your pH, which can lead to other nute imbalances, so too much nutes can lead to lock-out and symptoms of nutrient deficiency in the leaves. Add more nutes to the soil to combat deficiency and the situation gets worse.
Hydration levels of the growing media can also play a roll further complicating things (in a lockout situation, allowing the soil to dry will concentrate the nutrient salts into less water in the soil making the lock-out worse, despite that the plant was being over-watered and needs the lesser watering). Also, with rocotos in particular, high intensity/duration light also seems (to me anyway) to have an effect on apparent leaf health. My main point is that when things get out of wack - and I don't think your situation is at all terrible - you ultimately may have to simply balance everything and wait it out to some degree.
When I have had a rocoto start to do like yours I have always been successful with the following strategy, but it can take time and, of course, the damage leaves get worse not better:
Move the plant away from any intense light and heat and allow for good air circulation around the peat pot.
Stop all fertilizer for the time-being, probably for at least a couple weeks.
Water with pH adjusted water and, if possible, allow free chlorine to dissipate overnight if you have free chlorine vs chloramine in your water supply - if you have chloramine i wouldn't hassle with neutralizing it though).
Follow general rules on soil moisture versus too wet or dry.
Also - and this is counter to what is good advice in many situations - don't pull any more damaged leaves off the plant until the situation is cured or a leaf gets really bad. My reason for this is because if the plant is nutrient deficient - whether due to pH or salts lock-out or actual deficiency in the soil - it is pulling mobile nutrients from the older leaves to support the new leaves and plant's health. If you remove the leaves that its "cannibalizing" for nutrients while nutrients still remain in them, the plant will need to move up to the next set of leaves to pull nutrients from, thus you would be accelerating the damage to the plant by forcing the plant to attack newer healthy leaves before it would otherwise need to. Even if the plant is starting to get better, the symptoms will progress up the plant and the plant will be increasingly stressed.
Final 2 thoughts. If you do treat for Mg deficiency, treat with a light foliar feeding not in the soil, because treatments to soil could likely contribute to soil-based problems - I don't think Mg is the issue and don't recommend foliar feeding, but I can claim to know this. I would consider a pot-up being sure the new soil is light and well draining. For various reasons, pot-ups cure a lot of problems provided there's enough root base in the plant to support it.
Good luck man!
The leaves are most affected at the tip and margin, not more evenly throughout the leaves interveinally.
There's good green color in the bulk of the leaves.
The leaves are clawing somewhat, curling down and even rolling at the tips.
The plant looks otherwise pretty good.
Dark green and claw-down and necrosis at the leaf tips and margins can suggest over-fertilization, particularly nitrogen. With a MG soil base and weekly ferts, this could be an issue. Some chili varieties simply don't like as much fertilization as others, especially as younger plants. Nute build-up in the soil can affect your pH, which can lead to other nute imbalances, so too much nutes can lead to lock-out and symptoms of nutrient deficiency in the leaves. Add more nutes to the soil to combat deficiency and the situation gets worse.
Hydration levels of the growing media can also play a roll further complicating things (in a lockout situation, allowing the soil to dry will concentrate the nutrient salts into less water in the soil making the lock-out worse, despite that the plant was being over-watered and needs the lesser watering). Also, with rocotos in particular, high intensity/duration light also seems (to me anyway) to have an effect on apparent leaf health. My main point is that when things get out of wack - and I don't think your situation is at all terrible - you ultimately may have to simply balance everything and wait it out to some degree.
When I have had a rocoto start to do like yours I have always been successful with the following strategy, but it can take time and, of course, the damage leaves get worse not better:
Move the plant away from any intense light and heat and allow for good air circulation around the peat pot.
Stop all fertilizer for the time-being, probably for at least a couple weeks.
Water with pH adjusted water and, if possible, allow free chlorine to dissipate overnight if you have free chlorine vs chloramine in your water supply - if you have chloramine i wouldn't hassle with neutralizing it though).
Follow general rules on soil moisture versus too wet or dry.
Also - and this is counter to what is good advice in many situations - don't pull any more damaged leaves off the plant until the situation is cured or a leaf gets really bad. My reason for this is because if the plant is nutrient deficient - whether due to pH or salts lock-out or actual deficiency in the soil - it is pulling mobile nutrients from the older leaves to support the new leaves and plant's health. If you remove the leaves that its "cannibalizing" for nutrients while nutrients still remain in them, the plant will need to move up to the next set of leaves to pull nutrients from, thus you would be accelerating the damage to the plant by forcing the plant to attack newer healthy leaves before it would otherwise need to. Even if the plant is starting to get better, the symptoms will progress up the plant and the plant will be increasingly stressed.
Final 2 thoughts. If you do treat for Mg deficiency, treat with a light foliar feeding not in the soil, because treatments to soil could likely contribute to soil-based problems - I don't think Mg is the issue and don't recommend foliar feeding, but I can claim to know this. I would consider a pot-up being sure the new soil is light and well draining. For various reasons, pot-ups cure a lot of problems provided there's enough root base in the plant to support it.
Good luck man!
Just for the heck of it I potted this troublemaker up again and placed it outside the tomato patch on the floor of the office, and that's when I noticed this;
A purple midrib or vein.
this one and all my other tall plants are on a shelf at about eye level so I never noticed this until now that I'm looking down at it.
I'm not worried about it, and actually with the exception of loosing some leaves, this is a very healthy and interesting looking plant with its horizontal growth habit. I thought I remembered reading about purple veins but haven't been able to find anything using search. I'll keep looking, but I'm thinking it was to much nitrogen.
I just thought it was interesting as this is the only plant giving me a hard time and also the only one with the dark vein.
Thanks everyone for the guidance.
A purple midrib or vein.
this one and all my other tall plants are on a shelf at about eye level so I never noticed this until now that I'm looking down at it.
I'm not worried about it, and actually with the exception of loosing some leaves, this is a very healthy and interesting looking plant with its horizontal growth habit. I thought I remembered reading about purple veins but haven't been able to find anything using search. I'll keep looking, but I'm thinking it was to much nitrogen.
I just thought it was interesting as this is the only plant giving me a hard time and also the only one with the dark vein.
Thanks everyone for the guidance.
Cold temps will induce purple veining.
Some plants once hardened off induce purplish as well.
Your plants are really young for the most part. I think a lot of new growers get caught up with ph, and deficiency with nutes.
1/2 strength fish fertilizer and good soil goes along ways for good plant health.
Some plants once hardened off induce purplish as well.
Your plants are really young for the most part. I think a lot of new growers get caught up with ph, and deficiency with nutes.
1/2 strength fish fertilizer and good soil goes along ways for good plant health.