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Hoop House Advice
- Thread starter Pam
- Start date
Shame you couldn't incorporate the compost heat into there...I mean it's possible, but I can't find any info.
But yup, burning anything will eat oxygen, and electricity is going to cost a pile (elec. heating is resistance).
It's a tough call.
But yup, burning anything will eat oxygen, and electricity is going to cost a pile (elec. heating is resistance).
It's a tough call.
The hoop house looks great!
POTAWIE said:
Tomatoes are important, too. I need them for the pico de gallo sauces.
bentalphanerd said:
I'm just surprised that damage happened so quickly. As my hoop house isn't air tight, I don't think it will be as much of an issue, and if it is, I can always pull back one of the end pieces to let in more air.
But, I have an idea. I need to think about it a bit.
Intensity Academy said:
Thank you.
Ok, here's what I'm thinking.
This is my dream solar greenhouse that someday I'm gonna have. http://survivalplus.com/foods/page0009.htm
You will notice that they use water to store heat from the sun. I'm thinking that I can spray paint some 2 liter soda bottles black, and set them around the edges of the hoop house. Or maybe in a open place in the middle, I haven't really thought about that yet. It got up to 90 in the hoop house when it was just in the 60's outside, so I think the bottles will warm up even if they're not getting intense sunlight.
That should help moderate the temperature inside the hoop house, don't you think?
This is my dream solar greenhouse that someday I'm gonna have. http://survivalplus.com/foods/page0009.htm
You will notice that they use water to store heat from the sun. I'm thinking that I can spray paint some 2 liter soda bottles black, and set them around the edges of the hoop house. Or maybe in a open place in the middle, I haven't really thought about that yet. It got up to 90 in the hoop house when it was just in the 60's outside, so I think the bottles will warm up even if they're not getting intense sunlight.
That should help moderate the temperature inside the hoop house, don't you think?
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
Pam said:
I think you are on to something. The wife is gonna hate you when I tell her "Look honey, I want to build this".
I was reading an article on Bolivian solar greenhouses not long ago. Here's the online version without the cool pictures.
http://www.maximumyield.com/article_v9n1_those_remarkable_bolivian_solarhouses.php
http://www.maximumyield.com/article_v9n1_those_remarkable_bolivian_solarhouses.php
POTAWIE said:
Oh man, great article.
And they suggest the soda bottles to hold heat!
They also talk about using containers full of sand and gravel to hold heat. I could probably just fill some large black plastic pots with the sand and gravel and set them along the edges of the hoop house. Hmmmmm....
AlabamaJack
eXtreme
Pam said:
Pam, remember the article on the greenhouse from the link you posted said that water holds 5 times as much heat as soil/dirt/gravel does. But if you don't need as much heat then the pots with gravel/sand should work fine.
AlabamaJack said:
It's going to take me a little while to gather up enough 2 or 3 liter soda bottles to make much of a difference in a 10 X 20 hoop house. I have bunches of old black plastic pots sitting around, though, and I figure they would make a good but temporary substitute. Temporary, because I'll need my pots back come spring.
Pam,
I have about 30 2-liter bottles you are welcome to. For most of the summer, I drank my Mt. Dew from these, because they are perfect to put tomato juice in for preserving. Well, the drought caught up to the tomatoes and instead of having a couple hundred quarts, I ended up with only about 130.
If you want to meet at the next Hot Pepper Growers Anonymous meeting (you are addicted worse than me), I can give them to you.
I have about 30 2-liter bottles you are welcome to. For most of the summer, I drank my Mt. Dew from these, because they are perfect to put tomato juice in for preserving. Well, the drought caught up to the tomatoes and instead of having a couple hundred quarts, I ended up with only about 130.
If you want to meet at the next Hot Pepper Growers Anonymous meeting (you are addicted worse than me), I can give them to you.
Pam,
On further thought, it probably isn't worth the effort. Years ago I had a swimming pool that I wanted to use solar heat to warm the water. My back-yard neighbor did some calculations about how effective it would be. I had about 160 sq. feet of roof that was dieal for collecting the sun's rays. Now the pool was fairly large, holding 22,500 gallons of water. Factoring in the warming of the water from the sun, plus the added benefit of solar heating, he calculated the temps in the pool would rise by 1.5 degrees per day, provided I covered it nightly so minimize heat loss. This was in the middle of summer when there was a lot more daylight than in the dead of winter.
The guy probably was spot on - his calculations took up about three pages of a yellow legal pad. He also knew his stuff. He was a rocket scientist.
On further thought, it probably isn't worth the effort. Years ago I had a swimming pool that I wanted to use solar heat to warm the water. My back-yard neighbor did some calculations about how effective it would be. I had about 160 sq. feet of roof that was dieal for collecting the sun's rays. Now the pool was fairly large, holding 22,500 gallons of water. Factoring in the warming of the water from the sun, plus the added benefit of solar heating, he calculated the temps in the pool would rise by 1.5 degrees per day, provided I covered it nightly so minimize heat loss. This was in the middle of summer when there was a lot more daylight than in the dead of winter.
The guy probably was spot on - his calculations took up about three pages of a yellow legal pad. He also knew his stuff. He was a rocket scientist.
wordwiz said:
I disagree. This isn't something I made up, it's being used by others in solar greenhouses successfully. Did you read the articles that Potawie and I posted links to? The one I posted even gives 4 galleons/sq foot for a solar greenhouse in a very cold environment. I'm not depending completely on the water to heat and protect my hoop house, just to help.
I have, for several years, put black buckets of water in my cold frames in the spring to help stabilize the temperatures, and it has always worked pretty well.
I think perhaps your neighbor didn't quite have his figures right. I have a friend who made a solar pool heater this summer using a 5 X 6 box on the roof. I'm not sure how large the pool was, but it's not huge. Her homemade pool heater kept the water warm enough for swimming weeks after they would have normally shut it down for the winter, and they were able to open it a couple of weeks earlier than they would have in the spring.
Pam,
You tell me. He took the size of the pump and how many gallons per minute it would push through the line. He calculated the time spent inside the solar panels and what the temperature would be (how many BTUs it is producing). That gave him the temperature of the water entering the pool. We were looking at a 3 gal/min. pump that would run for 12 hours a day and raise the temperature 10 degrees. That would have added about 2100 gallons of water that was ten degrees warmer to the 22,500 that was there. Not quite 1/10, thus, the one degree a day.
Now, if one has a smaller pool (mine was 28 feet in diameter, with part of it seven foot deep) then adding 2100 gallon of water to it could raise the temps two or even three degrees a day, especially if the person had a larger collection area.
I'm not saying a solar system won't raise the temperature of water, just telling you what a scientist told me about how effective it would be.
Mike
You tell me. He took the size of the pump and how many gallons per minute it would push through the line. He calculated the time spent inside the solar panels and what the temperature would be (how many BTUs it is producing). That gave him the temperature of the water entering the pool. We were looking at a 3 gal/min. pump that would run for 12 hours a day and raise the temperature 10 degrees. That would have added about 2100 gallons of water that was ten degrees warmer to the 22,500 that was there. Not quite 1/10, thus, the one degree a day.
Now, if one has a smaller pool (mine was 28 feet in diameter, with part of it seven foot deep) then adding 2100 gallon of water to it could raise the temps two or even three degrees a day, especially if the person had a larger collection area.
I'm not saying a solar system won't raise the temperature of water, just telling you what a scientist told me about how effective it would be.
Mike
Bah, if he was a real scientist, he'd use metric 
You've hit the nail on the head though, the reason the temps would only rise 1.5 degrees (trusting your rocket scientist friend) would be because of the large amount of water. If you used a smaller amount of water, it'd get much hotter, although it'd also cool down faster. What you'd want to would be to heat up some water outside in the sun during the day (the actual temperature it got to wouldn't really matter, but rather the amount of energy it stored) then move it into an insulated environment (like a greenhouse) at night where it'd cool down slowly, keeping the greenhouse warm. You could move the water with some sort of pump system, or by manually dragging it around in containers. I'm fairly certain 1 100 litre container of water would work just as well as 50 2 litre bottles (exluding things like surface area, which would have some impact I think).
Hmm that was a bit long-winded... I guess what I'm trying to say is although heating a swimming pool up by 1.5 degrees isn't that great for swimming, the 1.5 degree hotter pool would do a great job of keeping a greenhouse warm at night (warmer than outside the greenhouse that is).
You've hit the nail on the head though, the reason the temps would only rise 1.5 degrees (trusting your rocket scientist friend) would be because of the large amount of water. If you used a smaller amount of water, it'd get much hotter, although it'd also cool down faster. What you'd want to would be to heat up some water outside in the sun during the day (the actual temperature it got to wouldn't really matter, but rather the amount of energy it stored) then move it into an insulated environment (like a greenhouse) at night where it'd cool down slowly, keeping the greenhouse warm. You could move the water with some sort of pump system, or by manually dragging it around in containers. I'm fairly certain 1 100 litre container of water would work just as well as 50 2 litre bottles (exluding things like surface area, which would have some impact I think).
Hmm that was a bit long-winded... I guess what I'm trying to say is although heating a swimming pool up by 1.5 degrees isn't that great for swimming, the 1.5 degree hotter pool would do a great job of keeping a greenhouse warm at night (warmer than outside the greenhouse that is).
wordwiz said:
What you're saying is that the solar system you had wasn't adequate for the pool you were trying to heat. However, people in climates much colder than mine are using water containers of one sort or the other to collect and release heat in solar greenhouses. So, it works within recognized limitations.
My hoop house doesn't have the insulation that the descriptions of the greenhouses in both articles describe, so I won't be depending solely on water to moderate temperatures inside it. However, it will help, and I'll take all the energy saving help I can get. My investment will be low, and I'm recycling plastic that might otherwise end up in the trash. In the spring, when the hoop house comes down, I can empty the water as needed from the bottles into the garden.
BobsYourUncle said:
The 50 2 liter containers are free. I don't know where I could get a 25 gallon container for free.
Plus, I think the water will heat up just fine inside the hoop house. During the 60 degree days we've been having it gets into the 90's inside the hoop house. It's supposed to be 78F today, so I opened the ends so it wouldn't over heat.
And need I mention that I am *not* planning on running back and forth lugging either 2 liter soda bottles or 25 gallon barrels every morning and every evening so they can get slightly more direct sun. Perhaps if I were training for the summer Olympics that would be a more attractive proposition; but...nuh uh!
Not for love, money, or beer. Or peppers.
Pam,
The point I was trying to make was that I'm not sure the benefit exceeds the effort. Trying to see if it would work, I've stuck a 2-liter bottle of water in the window. It did heat up Sunday (thanks to very bright sunlight and being next to the window) and had cooled off to room temperature by the next morning, meaning it had given off heat.
This would suggest using 50-100 bottles of water would add some heat (I don't have a clue how much) overnight, but you have to remember - the bottles will also act as an air conditioner during daytime. If the air is 75 degrees and the water is 70 degrees, they will give off cold air (or absorb the hot air) until they heat up. And if they are not close to a window or the plastic, it will take them quite a while to warm. Not to mention, during winter time, there are lots of days where the sun never seems to shine (SAD comes to mind).
If it were I and I was looking at a long term solution, I would probably use something like an old fashioned grill or a fireplace where the heat would be diverted through an insulation-wrapped air duct into you hoop house. Then again, I used a kerosene heater for a few years and it never hurt any plants growing inside, as long as I made sure to light it outside and not bring it in for a couple of minutes. The heater I had (years ago!) 3/4 gallon of fuel every day, but it ran 24 hours at it's highest setting. You might be able to use it for just eight hours a day at a lower setting, meaning a daily cost of less than a buck.
Mike
The point I was trying to make was that I'm not sure the benefit exceeds the effort. Trying to see if it would work, I've stuck a 2-liter bottle of water in the window. It did heat up Sunday (thanks to very bright sunlight and being next to the window) and had cooled off to room temperature by the next morning, meaning it had given off heat.
This would suggest using 50-100 bottles of water would add some heat (I don't have a clue how much) overnight, but you have to remember - the bottles will also act as an air conditioner during daytime. If the air is 75 degrees and the water is 70 degrees, they will give off cold air (or absorb the hot air) until they heat up. And if they are not close to a window or the plastic, it will take them quite a while to warm. Not to mention, during winter time, there are lots of days where the sun never seems to shine (SAD comes to mind).
If it were I and I was looking at a long term solution, I would probably use something like an old fashioned grill or a fireplace where the heat would be diverted through an insulation-wrapped air duct into you hoop house. Then again, I used a kerosene heater for a few years and it never hurt any plants growing inside, as long as I made sure to light it outside and not bring it in for a couple of minutes. The heater I had (years ago!) 3/4 gallon of fuel every day, but it ran 24 hours at it's highest setting. You might be able to use it for just eight hours a day at a lower setting, meaning a daily cost of less than a buck.
Mike
man I had a whole plan worked out for old swingsets which I thanked pam for but damn this is so much better