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How to get F1 through F what ever seeds.

patrick

patrick

My freaking brain hurts. I have been thinking wrong when it comes to F1/F2 etc seeds.

I always thought you just kept growing plants from the previous plants seeds to move up in the F line. The seeds from a crossed plant would be F1. Grow plants from those and their seeds would be F2. Grow a plant from those seeds and that plant would produce seeds that would be considered F3. Right? Wrong. You have to keep crossing plants. To get F2 seeds you grow plants from F1 seeds. Then you either cross those plants with each other or you can cross one plant onto itself. You take the pollen from one flower and mix it in to another flower. If that specific flower produces a pod then those seeds would be considered F2. Somebody smack me upside the head for not knowing this before. You want F3 seeds you have to do it again. You grow plants with the F2 seeds. You take the pollen from one flower and mix it in with another flower. If a pod grows from that specific flower the seeds would be F3.

The point of me doing the research was to find out if using specific pods would make the future pods more uniform. I've seen many growers here say they kept the best looking pods for seed for what I assumed was to grow pods that looked the same. You want tails on your pods you kept seeds from pods that had the best tails. Makes sense right? Well I don't know if that's right or not. I'm still trying to find an answer to that. If anybody knows please let me know.

Thanks.
 
i think you had it right the first time Patrick, with the growing out the last years pods to move up the F number. i think if you recross pods it would basically start again at F1.

some good reading of crossing

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes2.html
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes3.html
 
You would force pollinate the plant with itself to guarantee the pollen source since capsicum out crosses so easily. The flowers do frequently pollinate themselves, but you are gambling a little bit if you're relying on this occurring by itself.

As for picking a pod that looks a certain way, my opinion is that that is superstition. One plant has the same DNA all over it, however when pollination occurs things get scrambled a bit, so each seed will give you something different. But this has nothing to do with the shape of the pod, that is due to the particular combination of genes of the parent plant (not the seeds within it).
 
I agree with spice, I don't think picking particular pods that look like what you want will help with consistancy for the future, especially if you took that pod from a plant that had a variety of pod looks on the same plant. To be more consistant, you would grow up a batch of seedlings from a certain pod and take the plant that has the most consistancy, and of the shape, or whatever you are looking for, and then use a pod from that planty, to go on with the process. You get consistancy by trying many plants in each batch and picking the best plant from each generation to go on with.
 
cycadjungle said:
I agree with spice, I don't think picking particular pods that look like what you want will help with consistancy for the future, especially if you took that pod from a plant that had a variety of pod looks on the same plant. To be more consistant, you would grow up a batch of seedlings from a certain pod and take the plant that has the most consistancy, and of the shape, or whatever you are looking for, and then use a pod from that planty, to go on with the process. You get consistancy by trying many plants in each batch and picking the best plant from each generation to go on with.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are selecting genes from the plant not the pod (even if you think the magic is in the pod). If you get a pod you like on a plant, you can take seeds from any of the pods off the same plant (even the plain looking ones) and I think the odds will be the same of growing out a plant that reproduces this trait.
 
The growing of the seeds from the pod will get you to the next "f". I use the tulle isolation technique I got from you to do it. I have an f3 I will be growing and isolating this year using that technique. The isolation lets them pollinate themselves weather it is flower to flower or one flower all by itself.
 
Its the expression of the genes that "gets scrambled a bit".

All the genes are the same, but whether they are expressed or not, or to what extent, at least thats what I think you mean :),

Also, some people do have complicated pedigree crossbreeding programs. This carries good and bad. The less genetics involved (IE never back crossing to a relative of the parent) makes for a weak plant, and a weak strain. However, back crossing will re-set you to F1.
 
Hybrid supermarket peppers are an example.....you may not get the same if you chose to use those seeds. The possibly of deformed plants and pods increases.
 
hey, the POT guy could figure it out.... but he hasn't been on for a couple of weeks.
what's his name again.... potbee, potcee, potdee...... (how many letters are in the a'bet)...sorry i can't help! my skill ends at F1.
 
You guys are lucky you're not on the site here at 12:30. You missed about two pages of nonsense from me. I decided it's best to remove it and start from scratch and make it simple.

It all boils down to this. If the plant grown from F1 seeds self pollinates or is crossed with another plant grown from the same F1 seeds then the seeds from that plant are indeed F2.
 
My understanding of this whole F thing is that your original cross is between 2 parents.

The seeds from the P x P are F1 seeds

Now you grow out the F1 seeds and cross those plants with themselves.

F1 x F1 gives you your F2 seeds.

Once you grow out the F2 seeds you should be seeing all of the recessive traits popping up, and you select from there.

F2 x F2 gives you your F3 seeds, etc...
 
Justaguy said:
And now Patrick the pain in the brain should slowly drain.
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha, nice.


What I dont get is the same thing Patrick expressed earlier. If all the pods on 1 plant have the same genetics how do you improve on that strain. I do believe to some extent that individual pods carry some of their own "differences" compared to others on the same plant. I think it comes down to more than that though. When you are trying to selectively grow out a type you select the plant type you want first then pull the pods you like off that plant. You are choosing individual seeds first then what pod shape you want whether or not that actually matters is beyond me. I'll let other people grow out types. I find what I like and clone em :)
 
I think I may have been dreaming about this. The pain in the brain has indeed drained down the main pain vein. That was bad.

Anyway millman it is a puzzle isn't it? What I believe happens to improve a strain is as you go down the F road you choose the plants that have the traits you desire to cross onto themselves. I don't know if an individual pod makes a difference but I know if I were doing the work I would use seeds from the best pods on the best plants. Don't know if the pods will have any effect on future generations but common sense would suggest they do.
 
jsschrstrcks said:
Its the exp<b></b>ression of the genes that "gets scrambled a bit".

All the genes are the same, but whether they are expressed or not, or to what extent, at least thats what I think you mean :),

Also, some people do have complicated pedigree crossbreeding programs. This carries good and bad. The less genetics involved (IE never back crossing to a relative of the parent) makes for a weak plant, and a weak strain. However, back crossing will re-set you to F1.
Click to expand...

No, they do arrange in a different way, otherwise the offspring would be clones and this not how sexual reproduction works.
 
Been trying to read and understand all this F'ing as well. Have a few pepper crosses from last year that I would like to try and grow out next year and on. But don't get some things here.

If you have to keep crossing each F you come up with...when do the seeds become stable ?

F1xF1 F2xF2 F3xF3 ????? When do you get it to stabilize then ???

Also, was under the impression that F2 pods can resort back to both/either of the parental traits, in that the pods would represent/look like the parents more than the F1 Pod that the seeds came from. From here on at F2 is where you need to start the planting of more plants so as to start getting more of the pod types you desire. Then from here on, you chose those pods that best represent the pod traits you so desire and continue to grow these out.
Continued crossing would not stablize or allow for growing out of the pepper you desire.

Any comments ???
Or more confused then what you were??
 
k. skwerl said:
If you have to keep crossing each F you come up with...when do the seeds become stable ?
Click to expand...

For all practical purposes stability is pretty much reached by the F8.
Take a look here:

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes2.html

Cya

Datil
 
I think that link is good at explaining things. Just remember the plants have to be crossed with direct siblings or onto itself to progress up the F chain. Plus I believe they suggest getting to F10 to insure it's stable.
 
Being that each flower can produce a different looking pod than the others on the same plant even if isolated...
How would you know what the traits of each flower would be before it's podded up.
You're crossing something with something else you don't know the apperance/traits of the pepper are.
Even though you keep crossing flowers from the same plant there are still traits from the plant you do not desire.
Still keeps coming back, well atleast to me, that you keep getting crosses/hybrids of what you want.
Still not get it.
The other thread of F'ing sounds simpler to understand and how to grow out a specific looking pepper you desire.
Maybe I'll read it more and finally understand something.
 
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