hybrid How to note a cross: More naming convention

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

When you write Pepper A x Pepper B (or any plant cross) is there a naming convention for which goes left?  Like is it: Mamma x Pappa?
 
Now for a confusing one.  When you cross two colors to come up with a third whose original name gets used?  I remember reading that the Red Fatalii is a Yellow Fatalii crossed with a Red Savina.  Not sure I believe it, but lets pretend it is.  So the child is red so you have to call it red.  Since Red Savina already exists and it looks more like Fatalii in shape, could those have been factors in why it was called a Fatalii even though half if not Fatalii?

 
 
AJ Drew said:
When you write Pepper A x Pepper B (or any plant cross) is there a naming convention for which goes left?  Like is it: Mamma x Pappa?
 
Now for a confusing one.  When you cross two colors to come up with a third whose original name gets used?  I remember reading that the Red Fatalii is a Yellow Fatalii crossed with a Red Savina.  Not sure I believe it, but lets pretend it is.  So the child is red so you have to call it red.  Since Red Savina already exists and it looks more like Fatalii in shape, could those have been factors in why it was called a Fatalii even though half if not Fatalii?

 
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I think the answer is that people just name things whatever they want, and don't know or care about botanical nomenclature. [emoji3]

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thegreenman said:
I think the answer is that people just name things whatever they want, and don't know or care about botanical nomenclature. [emoji3]

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Ye, that is what I think too.  But somewhere in the organic chaos I am sure there is a pattern.  Trying to discover that pattern.  I am sure it will be different from proper botanical nomenclature.  So figure I should crowd source the answers.
 
 
It seems that writing Mother×Father is most common.

If you cross two different varieties once, and then grow it out over multiple generations trying to stabilize, I feel it would be wrong to name the result as either of the original parents because it would be a mix of genes, i.e. a completely new variety.

I think what people usually do (at least commercially) when they want to transfer a trait (e.g. colour, cold tolerance, or disease resistance) from one variety to another is to do multiple backcrosses. So if you have a Yellow Fatalii and want to create a Red Fatalii you could cross it with some closely related red variety like the Red Savina. In the first generation you will probably get only plants with red pods (because red is dominant?) but if you happen to get some yellow plants you just remove them. These red coloured plants are then backcrossed with the original Yellow Fatalii variety. In the next generation you will get both red and yellow plants. Remove the yellow ones and backcross the red ones with the original Yellow Fatalii again. If you keep repeat this process over and over again you will get something that is more and more genetically similar to the original Yellow Fatalii, but with a gene for red pods. As a last step, to finalize your Red Fatalii variety, you would have to get rid of the recessive yellow gene but this should be relatively easy to accomplish.
 
Mother x Father
 
F1 is progeny of the cross, F2 is seed from that, F3 is seed from that etc. This is if you do selection at each generation
 
Sometimes people will make selections only at the F2, then inbreed an entire F2 population without making selections until the lines are fully inbred. if you do this then the F3 is really an "F2 derived F3" which you can note as "F2:3." F2:7 lines is a good goal if you have the time and can do a winter nursery.
 
 
 
 
You've been asking a lot of questions about naming conventions lately. You've probably found out that hobbyists and backyard breeders don't really follow a lot of rules, haha.  Real breeders usually use internal codes to notate all of their lines, and then give it a new catchy name when they want to release a variety. Thats all you need to worry about.
 
 
AJ all you have to do is take any pepper and put any name you want in front, not likely anyone is going to pitch a fit.
 
Voodoo 6 said:
AJ all you have to do is take any pepper and put any name you want in front, not likely anyone is going to pitch a fit.
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True if the goal is selling seeds.  My goal is to figure out the terms that hobby folk can use to communicate our hobby.  I'd really love a degree in botany, use the fancy correct terms to talk to other botanists, but get the feeling those conversations would be really dry.  So I guess what we are talking is Botany Slang???
 
Gorizza said:
 
You've been asking a lot of questions about naming conventions lately.
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Here is a fun one.  When noting the generation of a cross, we go F1, F2, F3 and so on.  What does the F stand for?
 
It happened in the canna community, it got so stupid that no genetics were even in the realm of reality. Just put out a good product (as you always do) and keep on truckin
 
Have friend in Colorado.  She said that everything except Charlet's Web is completely different from one dispensary to the next.  Like if you buy Sour Diesel at one place, it will taste different than the stuff by the same strain name at the next place.  I -think- maybe since Charlet's Web is so very low in THC that not too many people grow it, so maybe most of it is grown by the same few people.  She also indicated shops keep introducing new strains that look, taste, and feel like something they sold the week before.

Reading literature from the sites, I do kind of wonder the same way I wonder about some peppers.  I am sure you have heard pod reviews that sound like they are reviewing fancy wines.  I can tell the difference between a wine I like and one I dont like, but all the comments about things like fruity undertones.  What the heck is an undertone?  Maybe I just dont have a refined pallet.
 
PS: If I ever do pod reviews so help me I am going to first pull off the stem and smell it the way they do with the cork of a bottle of wine.  Mmmm, good vintage.  This morning I believe.
 
Copy Pasta - n F1 hybrid (or filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types. F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid.
 
in dart frogs the F1 and F2 designations represent how many generations from wild caught. Its one the few hobbies where hybridization is forbidden. Even different localities of the same frog are kept separate. I had a f1 trio of oophaga pumilio that I had the exact GPS coordinates the parents where collected from on Isla san cristobal. 
 
Real botanists would probably laugh at hobbyist-- and even pro-- growers, with our amateur approaches to crosses, our nomenclature (every time i see someone refer to a cross between 2 chinense cultivars as a ¨hybrid,¨ my eyes roll automatically), and the incredibly uncontrolled and non-scientific method we use while implementing our selection process.  The naming conventions vary quite a bit, with some folks trying to be careful, accurate, and descriptive......and others concentrating on the marketing end of things.  I´m not trying to snob on any of this stuff; growers making crosses based on their whims are how new cultivars came about for centuries.  It´s just that, in my view, it´s more art than science, based on the volatility of Capsicum genetics, and the lack of real tech and knowledge that is available to (or, being employed by) the typical grower. 
 
That being said, i think AJDrew is making a good case here for a more methodical convention to categorizing crosses.  We´re mostly good with the F1, F2, etc stuff.  How about standardizing the order of a cross, in terms of the ¨mom¨ and ¨dad¨ cultivar involved in each case?  And/or a parenthetical treatment in the case f a 3 wa cross.  Cross a Hab with a Fatalii, you got Hab x Fatalii.  Cross THAT with a friggin´ Datil, you got (HabxFatalii) x Datil?  Just a little consistency, so other growers know more abut the origins and what they´re actually working with? 
 
Thought Mother x father was the norm. El Scoponero is a 4 way cross Carbonero X Butch T Scorpion Yellow. Or if fully expressed Carbon Indian Bhut Jolokia X Yellow 7/Pot X Orange Habanero X Butch T Scorpion Yellow.... Imagine trying to write that on a bunch of tags  :confused: 
 
The world is just one giant orgy of pollen and pistils. We don't own the right to name anything. Everyone is always obsessed with putting thing into nice neat packages and labeling them.
 
Sure, we can't control all of this sight, and no one ought to be trying to name and trademark chile DNA because, yeah, everything like that kinda belongs to all of us. I agree.

However, some folks *do* have goals and hopes and dreams and, if the community finds ways to more consistently describe the crosses their mussin'round with, it will be easier to reach for those goals, and easier to replicate desirable results. I'm not trying to control anything, I'm just advocating for strategies to ease ppl's efforts.

Surely, that wouldn't be a bad thing, even if it's far from foolproof, right?
 
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