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fermenting Is my latest fermented batch OK?

F

FrogFan

Hi all,
 
I just put a quart of fermented mash through the mill.  It had been fermenting for 17 months.  (I had forgotten about it.)  It looks good and smells fresh, with the usual lactic acid smell.  I tasted a teeny bit on a Frito.  It burned like fire (lots of habeneros in it) and tasted good.  No "off" flavor or aroma to me.
 
When I opened the fermenting jar (with airlock), there was a layer of (fuzzy) mold on top.  It peeled off in one piece.  I threw that away and dipped my ph meter into the mash and got a reading of 3.4.  That sounded good to me.  After I processed out the skin and the seeds, the ph actually went down to 3.1.
 
All of the above point to a safe sauce, but the layer of mold has got me a bit spooked.  Any insight from the experts here?
 
Thanks!
 
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FrogFan said:
When I opened the fermenting jar (with airlock), there was a layer of (fuzzy) mold on top.  It peeled off in one piece
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:shocked: :sick:
FrogFan said:
All of the above point to a safe sauce
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Ummmm....... read the first quote......
FrogFan said:
.....the layer of mold has got me a bit spooked
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Good. It should have you spooked! Sorry bud, but mold is a definite no-no. I hate to tell you, but I'd chalk that one up to a lost batch. No way in hell I'd eat that sauce. I don't care how little mold it might've been. I just tossed a half gallon ferment a few weeks ago because I found a little 3/8" patch of mold growing on the cabbage leaves on top of the mash. Mold wasn't even in contact with the sauce. Still wouldn't risk it. Not worth getting yourself (or someone else!) sick over it.

Like Edmick said, you said you forgot about it altogether. Was the airlock dried out? (Doesn't matter if it was or not, I'd still toss it) I'm just curious
 
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Thanks all.  I guessed that I should toss it, but the low ph got me to wondering.  That's why I posted here to seek your advice.
 
The airlock wasn't dry when I opened it today, but it might have been dry when I added some water about  3 or 4 months ago (that's when the forgetting began).  .
 
I would have posted pictures, but I never could figure out how to do that on this site.  The stuff I pulled of was greenish brown and covered the entire mash with a thin, leathery layer.  It came off in one piece, almost as if it were sealing the surface of the mash.  There were tufts of fuzzy stuff in the middle of it.
 
I'm going to pitch it.
 
Thanks again.  I appreciate your help.
 
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jhc said:
Would cooking not kill the remaining mold?
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It just may, however molds create and secrete other compounds that can cause people to become very ill. Some people are very sensitive to these compounds and can have anaphylactic reactions. These compounds would stay in the sauce after cooking even though the mold may have died.
 
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Dane said:
It just may, however molds create and secrete other compounds that can cause people to become very ill. Some people are very sensitive to these compounds and can have anaphylactic reactions. These compounds would stay in the sauce after cooking even though the mold may have died.
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I think you're confusing allergic reactions to the mold itself with mycotoxins (none of which I've ever seen reported in acidified hot sauce. 
 
I'm not saying it's safe to eat. I'm just questioning if there's any evidence besides "common sense" (which is not commone) and wive's tales that says it isn't.
 
If the pH is 3.6, then the actual mold could not have grown inside the brine. If there are toxins then that's a problem. So where is the evidence that toxin-secreting molds grow on top of hot sauces or pepper mashes?
 
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If I was gonna eat something that I scraped the mold off of (which I'm not) I would definitely stay away from a brown colored mold. Seems like those would be the worst lol
 
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jhc said:
I think you're confusing allergic reactions to the mold itself with mycotoxins (none of which I've ever seen reported in acidified hot sauce. 
 
I'm not saying it's safe to eat. I'm just questioning if there's any evidence besides "common sense" (which is not commone) and wive's tales that says it isn't.
 
If the pH is 3.6, then the actual mold could not have grown inside the brine. If there are toxins then that's a problem. So where is the evidence that toxin-secreting molds grow on top of hot sauces or pepper mashes?
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So the evidence is in the first post. We were told he found mold growing on top of his sauce with a pH measuring 3.4. We also know molds create mycotoxins. That's a fact. Are you looking for studies of people being effected by mycotoxins? Or mycotoxins specifically from food or sauces affecting people?
This is one example.
https://moldpedia.com/mycotoxins
Here is a link to whole book that studies and references the effects of mycotoxins.
https://www.nap.edu/download/11011#
it's a free PDF download so you can read the whole thing and really get up in there and pull out some factual research. I hope this helps to point you in the right direction.
 
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Dane said:
So the evidence is in the first post. We were told he found mold growing on top of his sauce with a pH measuring 3.4. We also know molds create mycotoxins. That's a fact. Are you looking for studies of people being effected by mycotoxins? Or mycotoxins specifically from food or sauces affecting people?
This is one example.
https://moldpedia.com/mycotoxins
Here is a link to whole book that studies and references the effects of mycotoxins.
https://www.nap.edu/download/11011#
it's a free PDF download so you can read the whole thing and really get up in there and pull out some factual research. I hope this helps to point you in the right direction.
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"Or mycotoxins specifically from food or sauces affecting people?"
 
This. You can post link after link about aflatoxin if you want - no doubt it's bad news. But it's found mainly in grains. I've never seen any mention of mycotoxin-producing molds contaminating acidified sauces. I have found many anecdotal suggestions that it's ok to scrape off mold (mold, not kahm yeast) from ferments and eat the rest. (not that I consider these to be definitive either)
 
BTW, the evidence I asked for was not in the first post. The OP did not provide any evidence that the mold he scraped off was one that secretes a mycotoxin.
 
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I agree with you.....and so do these folks
 
https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/natural-fermentation/vegetable-ferments-mold/
 
jhc said:
I think you're confusing allergic reactions to the mold itself with mycotoxins (none of which I've ever seen reported in acidified hot sauce. 
 
I'm not saying it's safe to eat. I'm just questioning if there's any evidence besides "common sense" (which is not commone) and wive's tales that says it isn't.
 
If the pH is 3.6, then the actual mold could not have grown inside the brine. If there are toxins then that's a problem. So where is the evidence that toxin-secreting molds grow on top of hot sauces or pepper mashes?
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FrogFan said:
I would have posted pictures, but I never could figure out how to do that on this site.
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Just click More Reply Options and click the paperclip under the editor. ;)
 
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jhc said:
"Or mycotoxins specifically from food or sauces affecting people?"
 
This. You can post link after link about aflatoxin if you want - no doubt it's bad news. But it's found mainly in grains. I've never seen any mention of mycotoxin-producing molds contaminating acidified sauces. I have found many anecdotal suggestions that it's ok to scrape off mold (mold, not kahm yeast) from ferments and eat the rest. (not that I consider these to be definitive either)
 
BTW, the evidence I asked for was not in the first post. The OP did not provide any evidence that the mold he scraped off was one that secretes a mycotoxin.
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the links were meerly to demonstrate effects that mycotoxins can have on people.
Here's the thing, while I agree with you that there isn't a specific piece of definitive evidence from a scientific study specifically about acidified sauces and mycotoxin producing molds growing in them, that I can find. I also know that, I along with most other people, could never clearly identify for 100% what mold was what.
So it stands to reason that any unidentifiable mold could be a mold that may be producing toxic compounds. Any reasonable person would come to a similar conclusion. And based on the temperatures necessary to break down these compounds I would never try to cook it and assume it was safe because "it would kill the remaining mold."
I wonder, is it possible for you to present information that proves difintively, mold that produces toxic compounds could never actually grow in an acidified sauce?
 
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