lighting LED Lighting: How Much is Too Much?

dlsolo

dlsolo

Hey all,
 
So, over the past few months, I've been doing some real soul searching, for LED lighting to replace my T5 setup.  Currently, I have a 5'x5' grow area and it's being lite by a 8-bulb T5 setup.  It's not bad, but I'm waiting to grow more peppers, through fruit. 
 
With that said, I'm looking at buy four (4) Galaxy Hydro 300W Full Spectrum LED lights, to simulate approximately 1200W of light.  Here's the link to those lights:
 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00INM0750/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2L94QV6P0R9ON
 
Now, I know they are probably not going to break any world records for PAR, but I think marrying up 4 of them, in the size area that I'm growing, that should be everything I need to grow 6 pepper plants through flower/fruit stage.
 
Cost wise, I'm very comfortable spending up to 800 buck-a-roos.  So, going with the four LED lights above, I still have money to spare, compared to some of those other expensive lights.
 
I'll pause there for comments and suggestions.  I'd say I'm a few days from pulling the trigger.
 
Love to hear your thoughts.  Thanks in advance.
 
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willard3 said:
 1200watts will bring about 4 plants to fruit. Wattage will be proportional, so you will need 1800w for 6 plants.
Click to expand...
 
Ah, okay.  1800W it is.  So, roughly 300W per plant, then?
 
willard3 said:
 1200watts will bring about 4 plants to fruit. Wattage will be proportional, so you will need 1800w for 6 plants.
Click to expand...
 
I normally do not argue on stuff I have no true personal experience on, i.e. growing plants under LEDs.  But do you back this with personal LED experience?
 
I do know my way around LED fixtures which is why I ask and argue.  Wattage, while important, is not a means to measure how many plants you can grow.
 
You need to look at the amount of coverage provided, and make sure the fixture supplies enough par to that coverage area.
 
So these Chinese 300w fixture usually provide about a good 2'x3' coverage.  You certainly can get 2 decent sized plants under that.  With multiple fixtures you could probably get more.  4 fixtures in a 2x2 pattern I bet you could get at least 12 plants growing healthy.
 
As far as quality coverage, they are using tightly packed 3w Chinese LEDs running at about half power.  Should put down decent light, but not awesome.  Still sufficient though for good growth.
 
Have worked with LED's for many years now, only two years for plant grows.  IMHO its a tightrope walk of light over heat, over plant genetics.  Providing a huge blast of light yet little heat hitting the plant is resulting in something I'd not hypothesized.  Plants grow short and fat with more leaves, waiting now for buds to see whats next.  If kept cool I don't think you can have too much light currently.
 
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/54113-the-garden-is-off-to-a-good-start/
 
With a Vornado desktop fan circulating the massive amounts of air within the semi-closed in area, I'm not too worried about temps.
 
I'm going to start with four (4) and see how that goes.  I had this thought that, because these lights aren't the best-of-the-best for LED lighting, that quantity will take care of quality.
 
Or am I wasting my time with these and should just drop some serious coin and be done?  I'm thinking, for the six plants I want to grow inside, I need at least 1000W of LED power.
 
 
 
willard3 said:
Wattage is proportional to lumens with LED and with all other light sources. LED is about 100 lumens/watt.
Click to expand...
 
Funny how that is the same for a HID and HID bulbs do it sooooo much cheaper. :rofl:
 
I don't get the whole watts as a measure of light thing.
 
Way back when an incandescent bulb at X watts always put out X amount of Lumens per watt.
Thus the standard for those bulbs.
Now a 50watt bulb puts out what a 75 or 100 watt bulb used to.
 
Yes my 1 watt LEDS CAN put out UP to about 100LM.
Most don't except in the Blue wave lengths.
BUT I have red ones that Max. out at more like 35-50Lm.
 
I have 3 Watt LEDs that are mostly 35Lm max.
 
So any Watt measure is mostly in accurate unless ALL colors/NM of LEDs did put out the same Lm. per Watt.
Which they don't.
 
I think Vendors confuse things by using Watts the LED uses as a measure of Light output.
They can use any LED that is 1 or whatever Watt and say they are selling a 300W. panel and use any LM. LEDS that is cheapest.
If the panel has 100 3 Watt LEDS,it means nothing.
Are they 35 LM. or 100Lm.
Lots of difference.
 
Also,I constantly read about Light meters being unable to measure LED LM.
Since plants use mostly the wavelenths we see,why is a light meter cool for other stuff (Like factory lighting safety etc.,but not for the light our plants use)?
 
I used 1Watt LEDS because of cost and the same or more LM. per Watt per LED.
I did buy my LEDS 5+ years ago.
Yup From CHINA.Only ones that fried so far are ones I overdrove at Max voltages...
 
New LEDS in higher Watts haven't changed much as far as I can see,except in price.
I paid anywhere from $1.00 to $.25 an LED star.
LESS for 10mm (at higher LM but less nm choices).
5mm LEDS were pennies each per thousand-the stuff I experimented with on starts to check out NM. and LM. my plants would like.Too much confusing stuff on the net.
So 3 , 12 volt,12 amp. computer power supplies did the job-thats a max of 48 amps 12 volts = 568 watts.
I don't know Lumens ,only what I get from my LUX meter on the shelves.About 35,000 +/- average from 18in. away.
Gotta turn them off to water or I see spots looking at the shelves.
I need the mylar or you see spots from reflected light in my kitchen.
 
Close to the suns light HERE,BUT in mostly plant usable nm.
 
Most is sales B.S. repeated by people who purchased crap panels or tried to light a grow room with a candle.
Vendors sell stuff at MAX. prifit...
If they can't Dazzle you with brilliance,Baffle them with B.S.
 
I don't get the Better light penetration thing people post about with 3W LEDs over 1w. LEDS.
I don't see how a 3 watt,35Lm. Leds outperforms a 80LM,1 w. LED.
Makes no sencse to me.
I see my 1 watt LEDS out perform the 3 watt ones I tried at first (because the net said they were better-had to use them.1watt ones were crap...so they told me).
Used the same nm and mostly the same Lm. for red,Lot higher LM. in blue for both LEDS.
I would have used the same LM for both but couldn't see buying lessor LM. LEDS in 1 Watt at less than a 3 watt cost.
IF the crappyness of CHINESE 1 watters was true,it shouldn't make a difference.
The 3 watt ones were U.S. made.
I was on a mission of trial and error-sort out the B.S. from the truth.
 
I use LEDs on 4 sides of my plants -Top ,Back and both sides,Mylar in front.
 
I had pics of a 5Ft tall X 7ft wide 7 pot in my Kitchen that did very well with 3 or 4, 10 mm Led panels (125 LEDS on an 8in. X 12in. perf board) And 2 star panels (50,1 watt LEDs per panel).
I ran all of them on 12V,12amp. Power supplies.
I also had a couple dozen 5mm Panels For extra branching early on) running too off the same power supplies(they were 3X4,125LED perf boards).
 
The Fluoro to light the kitchen was a 4Bulb 4ft. setup.
Too far away I think to make a difference,it also was on and off as needed most times.
The only window in the kitchen is 2ft. X 4 Ft. and film coated.
Not good light for plants.
I now have a 4Ft fluoro in the windowsill because The South facing window sucks for plants because of the film on it.
 
I only know what works for MY grow.
I grow plants indoors until I get pure seeds.
Then they go outside.
LEDS SEEM to make my plants not need hardening off for the most part.
Undecided 100% though.MOST go straight to pots,southern exposure with no problem.
But some don't like it and aren't happy.
BUT I think it's a root thing in general.
4 1/2 in. pots ,EVEN root bound need time to support a plant in southern exposure.
I don't think it's a sun thing.No burned leaves etc. like I had with Fluoros.
I've NEVER used Halides.
Too much heat for my grow indoors.
 
I've been seeing people using a mix of 3500nm and 6500nm white Leds these days with good success lately.
White higher Watt and LM. LEDS are a LOT cheaper than colored ones.
 
But then you have to realize your getting back into wasted Watts for wavelengths your plant doesn't use - Back to other light sources being as good or better than LEDS.
My problem with my growing conditions is all about Heat VS max LM. for whatever light source I use.
My kitchen is at least high 70's year round,mostly 80+.
 
As I said,I use what works for MY grow.Might not work for you.
 
No such thing as too much Light,just put your light source farther away from your plant-bigger footprint.
 
>>>>>>>>Actually, wattage is a measure of power consumption, not output.>>>>>>


Wattage is a measure of both input and output.
 
@smokemaster, I'm a changed man... I can follow your logic.  Thank you for taking the opportunity to brain dump your insight, greatly appreciated.  So let me ask, is it even worth looking at the commercial LED grow lights?  900W systems going for $2K seems high for something I can put together for less than $600 bucks.
 
I just bit the bullet and ordered 5 of those LED panels.  Good price and I think it will meet the intent of my lighting needs.  I'm excited.  This will be my first LED grow light.  Should be here mid-week and will have pictures up next weekend.
 
Thank you all for your inputs.  
 
 

willard3 said:
>>>>>>>>Actually, wattage is a measure of power consumption, not output.>>>>>>


Wattage is a measure of both input and output.
Click to expand...
Yes, if you are talking about power generation, but with regard to the subject at hand, lumens would be the the preferred unit of measure.
 
alkhall said:
Power is power, true.
 
But, there are conversion factors to be considered.
 
For watts to lumens, one must know the luminous efficacy of the lamp in question.
Click to expand...
 
I'm starting to really understand that statement.  Doing some more research into CREE LEDs and there's a bit more math in to calculating a 1000W HID equivalent capability.
 
Nevertheless, my package should be here on Tuesday and should have pics at that time.  I'm kinda excited.  I understand those lights aren't gonna win awards but I'm pretty sure my plants will love them nonetheless... 
 
I agree,Watts means little,IF Lumens is omitted,EVEN more so (For Plants) if nm output of plant usable light is disregarded also.
 
Watts per LM. OF plant usable light CAN make a giant difference.
 
Even crap LEDS should put out 50% + of the NM they are rated at.
BUT an LED can be rated at whatever with less than 50%,IF there are other wave lenght put out in almost even amounts.
Say an LED isw rated at 450nm (blue) it could put out 35% 450nm,and 33% the rest nm in other wave lengths.
Probably more pertinant to quality control...
Maybe that is why my 1 watt Chinese LEDs work so well.
They might put out a lot more stray wave lengths than other LEDS.
Possibly closer to what the sun puts out?
 
ALSO I LIKE the idea of LEDS putting out a few stray NM.
It covers the stuff most times that a LOT of people add orange,yellow,green or white LEDS to cover.
Blue LEDS especially put out a large part of the NM a white LED is added to the expensive panels.
Red usually puts out a range of orange to far red too.
Without a spectrometer and running the same LED at different voltages,I'll never know.
 
To me,just being able to somewhat control what wave lengths I can semi control with LEDs as a light source is great.
BUT take it in context-I mostly grow plants to maturity in 4 1/2 in. pots for seed THEN they go out into 5gal.+ pots outside.
 
As I always say,what works for me isn't what might work for you.
 
The only time I grew large plants under LEDS (1watt) was to piss off a few armchair experts who purchased Chinese Panels for $30.00 and started spouting crap about how LEDS sucked in general.
The common thing was LED tech isn't cool and no penetration of light etc.
 
They were trying to use candles to grow plants under (mostly stuff made with 5mm LEDS in China).
 
A lot of the myths about LEDS is going away.
Even pot grow sites are finding out that plants don't need a lot of the nm of light that was a must years ago.
 
Back in the 70's,I knew several people who did fine with several Fluoros in cool and hot white.
LM was the key and daylight hours-at the time.
Long days until your plants were where you wanted them,then you cut down to get them to bud-think it was winter...
 
I knew people who made $ft. X 4ft X4ft boxes with a dozen 5gal. buckets in them of pot plants.
The Fluoros were vertically placed (16 I think,not sure)and 4 above.
They had TONS of trimmings year round.
Buds out the butt after a few months.
Most isomerize the trimmings for oil (alcohol extraction,acidify the oil to trn the inactive THC into the good stuff).
 
Point is,A lot of the stuff vendors say are facts are just out of context B.S.
 
Carp IT IS on the Net. ,It HAS to be true...   :)
Too bad my grow doesn't surf the net. or didn't get the memo. LOL
 
Take a CD to your Lights,you'll see a rainbow of colors.
NO it won't tell you specific wave lengths but show you thick or thin bands of what your lights put out.
If you are expecting high red but see only a thin band of red or arange,you got screwed.Same with any other color your source is supposed to supply.
There are plans for building a CD based Spectrometer on the net.
 
You would be supprised at what you see just going around your house reflecting light off your CD prism.
Fun if nothing else.
 
There was some University that had simple plans to use a CD and camera from a computer that was easy to make that was high 90% accurate.
I posted the simple hand held one here and the camera one here a long time ago.
Hand help is a prism,the other actually shows wave lengths-hooks into your computer...
 
Crap ,dead links...except 1.
 
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/19935-want-to-see-the-colors-your-growlights-put-out/?hl=%2Blight+%2Bwavelengths#entry419000
 
I can't get into the technical aspects of how LED lights work, but I did successfully bring chili plants to fruit under my 180W Blackstar UV LED last year. It wasn't my intention, but I planted early and let them grow until I realized that they weren't the pepper that I wanted. I have no idea how they compare to HID or HPS lights.

Neil
 
Blister said:
I can't get into the technical aspects of how LED lights work, but I did successfully bring chili plants to fruit under my 180W Blackstar UV LED last year. It wasn't my intention, but I planted early and let them grow until I realized that they weren't the pepper that I wanted. I have no idea how they compare to HID or HPS lights.

Neil
Click to expand...
 
I followed your Glog and was extremely inspired by your results.  I know it's possible, that's why I'm diving into the LED world.  Thanks for your response Neil.
 
I've never used HPS or MH type lighting, but I've been experimenting with full spectrum COB LEDs. I have 2 LEDs rated at 100w each, but I drive them at half power, so I think they will be equivalent to a 150w HPS. I have them in a 2'x2' tent. I'm no expert in LED lighting, since I followed another persons DIY lighting that interested me. So far I have 3 chili plants in 3 gallon pots (pretty packed in my tiny tent) and my shishito pepper (topped once) has a few flowers and many more podding up. No fruits set yet, but I will be very excited to see some soon! I will try to take a picture and post it.
 
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