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Lessons from the Pepper Testing Lab: Lesson 1

ASTA pungency testing has been industry standard for decades.
 
It is logical when thinking about pungency testing to say that dried samples are more pungent than fresh samples.  It's a PPM ration.  SoMany PPM capsaicinoids in relation to all the other "stuff" in the test sample.  The same principle applies to garlic, cinnamon, horseradish, dried fruit....when the water of the product is removed the (whatever compound) is in a higher concentration to all the other stuff in the sample. 
 
"pungency" does not just apply to chile capsaicinoids.  It is also used to talk about cinnamon, paprika, vanilla, garlic, and tons of other spices. 
 
Think about large food manufacturers who use things like chiles, garlic, cinnamon...all natural products that will have varying degrees of pungency depending on the season, location, etc, etc.  They can't make a garlic chip with a garlicy flavor of 2 using Lot567 of Roasted Garlic one time and expect  Lot754 of Roasted Garlic to have the same pungency.  If Lot 754 is 8% hotter in pungency then they have to accomodate that in their processing to maintain the Level2 garlicy flavor. 
 
FWIK- for each of the above flavor samples, there are certain compounds/chemicals in the samples that will indicate how strong the flavor of that spice will be.  HPLC testing can tell how strong the cinnamon flavor will be, hot garlicy the garlic is....by looking at those identified markers in the samples.
 
1tom~ is the expert, not me.  I'm sharing what I've learned talking with labs and other.  If I'm wrong, I hope 1tom2go will set it straight.
 
Maybe I missed a post or something.
As I understand it,IT DEPENDS A LOT on the pods you send in-fresh or dry that get tested.
 
The same pods could get different values according to THE TEST done at SAID SPECIFIC TIME +/-.
 
So tests in general-1 time for whatever,means very little in general except to who ever wants to use the test for sales purposes.
 
Ad to that,from what I read on the net,different tests give different results for possibly the same variety AND possibly the same pods tested.
 
To me I can see that a plant I grew was SUPER HOT but I grew 3+ from the seeds from the same pod.1 was way hotter at harvest than the others.
 
Doesn't really mean much other than sales value,get the hottest pods tested so I can get a world record to sell any seeds from my XXX pepper.
 
I kinda think of testing the same as I do with current crosses.
YUP the Whatever unstable cross that tests a gazillion sku. means NOTHING.
Most are 1 trick ponies.
Unless the generations of growout  are in isolation long enough to be stable.
It means nothing,except to the vendor selling the seeds from that cross/variety.
 
Also can a guy inject a pod with extract from other pods or pepper extract to juice up their pods to get a higher result?
 
I'm just wondering about what tests are sceened,or can be screened for stuff like people hedging their bets.
Especially people like Edd Currie (SP?)who use their own sources to test their varieties.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say IS are there any regulations as to the tests done,whether all of them are coming up with the same results.
I DON"T think the labs,IN GENERAL are putting out results that favor anyone,UNLESS they are involved with the lab that tests stuff-Edds stuff...
 
I DO think Vendors/Growers who have big $ involved are doing whatever it takes to make BIG bucks-any way they can.
 
I've grown and eaten a LOT of supers over the years.
Several were way hotter than anything I've eaten since 2005.
Some were almost as hot BUT tasted better.
The current record super wasn't EVER close in heat,BUT a few tasted way better than Bhuts even though they were less hotter than Butch T or several of the HOTTER stuff I've tasted/Grown-Douglah,Morouga ,Primo etc.
 
As far as Edds trip about Cancer and supers go.
I don't believe it.
I spent a month in the hospital eating tasteless food.
I had my brother bring me my pepper powder stash to make the food eible.
Butch T,Brain Strain and other powders.
All it did was make me happy about eating tasteless hospital food.
During that time I was diagnosed as Chemo sucked.
The last out of 6 worked.
I eat Peppers every day FOR YEARS.
They had no effect on Lymphoma B stage 3.
As far as I can tell.
Actual tests that I've researched say the same thing.
Labs tests injecting stuff into cancer cells in a test tube/a dog or whatever SOMETIMES works.
NOT EATING ANY PEPPERS.
NO studies are about the different countries that eat a lot of peppers on a daily basis.
 
I don't doubt what the original poster says at all.
I'm just bringing up another aspect to the way I think people are using the tests the original poster says and MY opinion as to what the results he/his lad sends out are used to sell product.
 
As I said,I have no problem with testers,I do have a problem with sales crap that tested stuff gets sold for.
Cancer research or whatever is WAY miss represented in my opinion.
$ rules,their excuse is needing $ to do research.
 
Most I see as B.S.
Help the children,Cancer etc.
So they MIGHT donate to whatever-AFTER they laugh to the bank.
 
Seems to me that everything that has a  passionate following about something claims it helps them loose weight, cures cancer ect ect ect. 
 
Look at Cannabis, Peppers, "essential oils" (holy shit there's some nutballs there) I'm sure the list goes on but I try to limit my exposure to types of weirdos I can relate to. 
 
El Angeleno said:
So do you think ASTA pungency units is a more accurate way of measuring heat? Seems a little inaccurate if the standard of measurement deals in dry units when your talking about fruit no?
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The accuracy of a sample is the same regardless of the type of sample.  I mean that we extract out the capsaicinoids with a solvent and it doesn't matter what it is.
When I say the standard in the super-hot industry is to test dry, I mean that they like to use those values even though they don't have to.  
 
I wanted to talk about this topic with you guys because customers make sauces or salsas and then are disappointed at the results because they didn't realize different values in dry versus wet product. 
 
It's all about understanding what you're testing and why.  It's also about the language that the industry adopts and then we are stuck with that.
 
I have never heard of ASTA pungency units, but we use the ASTA pungency method and report SHU as the units.
El Angeleno said:
That makes sense, why then all the talk of SHU's if it's a known to be flawed process? Marketing maybe?
Click to expand...
 
You're right that marketing is the force that determines the language used.
 
If a fresh pod is 120,000 shu and the same pod dried out is 800,000 ... why does the fresh pod seem to burn worse?? Or is that just my personal perception of things?

And how does dillution work? A gram of 800,000shu cap oil in a gram of water should still be a gram of 800,000shu reguardless if its spread out or not . I dont understand how adding a gram of water changes that.

Unless scoville units are not the measure of how hot something is, but the measure of how much of the hotness there is? But that would mean jalapeno has the same oil as a reaper, but the reaper has way more of it..

Pardon my ignorance, im new and learning
 
smokemaster said:
Also can a guy inject a pod with extract from other pods or pepper extract to juice up their pods to get a higher result?
 
I'm just wondering about what tests are sceened,or can be screened for stuff like people hedging their bets.
Especially people like Edd Currie (SP?)who use their own sources to test their varieties.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say IS are there any regulations as to the tests done,whether all of them are coming up with the same results.
I DON"T think the labs,IN GENERAL are putting out results that favor anyone,UNLESS they are involved with the lab that tests stuff-Edds stuff...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the great post with lots of questions.
 
There are not rules in testing of peppers.  I have rules when I test them, but I don't care what the customer did to the sample they sent me.  Yes you can spike it and nobody cares.
 
Now if you are submitting peppers analysis results to the Guinness World Record, then it's their job to secure the data and decide if it works for them.  The testing labs just test and report the numbers.  We also use standards that must be within a certain range or we retest.  
 
I may be able to tell if a pepper is spiked with extract but only if someone spikes it too much.   I can tell you that no one spikes hundreds of peppers when they are tested because it's too much work.  Ed Currie had many, many peppers tested.  I don't bash on this guy because, first, I don't know him, and second I think he has done a lot for promoting the pepper industry around the world.  I also have looked over as much evidence of how the testing happened and I agree with it.  
LordHill said:
If a fresh pod is 120,000 shu and the same pod dried out is 800,000 ... why does the fresh pod seem to burn worse?? Or is that just my personal perception of things?

And how does dillution work? A gram of 800,000shu cap oil in a gram of water should still be a gram of 800,000shu reguardless if its spread out or not . I dont understand how adding a gram of water changes that.

Unless scoville units are not the measure of how hot something is, but the measure of how much of the hotness there is? But that would mean jalapeno has the same oil as a reaper, but the reaper has way more of it..

Pardon my ignorance, im new and learning
Click to expand...
 
From what I understand is that dried pepper powder doesn't react in our mouth the same as pepper pods, sauces, or oils.  I taste many products at work and the powders never burn as bad as the wet products.  I don't know the science of it.
 
Dilution works by allowing more space for the oil to go and "hide", so when you take a sample to test you find less of it.  For example, if you have a fish in a small bowl you can catch it easily, but if you have one fish in a large lake it is more "dilute" and harder to catch.
 
I am not sure about the amount of oil in the peppers, but the super-hots do seem to have more oil visually.  It may also be a stronger oil from the genetics of that type of pepper.
 
The main point I am trying to make is just that there are 2 different scales:  Dry and Wet.   So, be careful to understand the differences.  This is very important for sauce/salsa and fermented mash makers. 
 
I'm still learning a lot too!
Datil said:
 

The tests are usually not performed on DRIED material?

 
Cya
 
Datil
Click to expand...
 
The tests are performed any way you want, wet or dry.  If you make sauces then you test it wet.  If you sell powders, you test them that way.  Or if you want the highest value, then you test it dry as well.  I'm just saying it depends on your goal for the value.  Is it to mix products for sauces and be consistent or are you just seeing how hot your pods are?
 
Thanks for sharing, 1Tom~  this is great information on a (sometimes) confusing topic.
 
"Dilution works by allowing more space for the oil to go and "hide", so when you take a sample to test you find less of it.  For example, if you have a fish in a small bowl you can catch it easily, but if you have one fish in a large lake it is more "dilute" and harder to catch"

What I take from this is Scoville testing is very inaccurate/unreliable. Its not that the other 680,000 shu arent present, its just that they werent part of the test because of the 2 gram sample, a bunch was water. Which means the 120,000 means absolutely nothing. Its basically a random number < the actual number.

I guess dry is the only way to go when testing pods. Good to know
 
Thanks everyone for the questions and comments.
 
My reason for this thread was to  share with you guys another way to look at things.   
 
If your making sauces or salsas from pepper mashes or purees, then you may want to know what to expect if you do send them in for testing.  
 
Thanks.
 
salsalady said:
Thanks for sharing, 1Tom~  this is great information on a (sometimes) confusing topic.
Click to expand...
 No problem!  It is confusing.
 
Also Remember how dry the dried pepper gets will increase or decrease the SHU's as if you could get it to 0% water it would test higher then just 5%, that is if you could get it to 0% water.  The lab test by weight, water adds weight.   My brother is a chemist.      

 As for why I think fresh pepper taste hotter then dry peppers,  Why does water make peppers hotter when you drink water?  The water in the peppers IMO is why pods taste hotter.  

   
 
Mr. Hill said:
Also Remember how dry the dried pepper gets will increase or decrease the SHU's as if you could get it to 0% water it would test higher then just 5%, that is if you could get it to 0% water.  The lab test by weight, water adds weight.   My brother is a chemist.      

 As for why I think fresh pepper taste hotter then dry peppers,  Why does water make peppers hotter when you drink water?  The water in the peppers IMO is why pods taste hotter.  

   
Click to expand...
Good point!  The lowest I normally see is about 2% moisture.  I don't know why they are hotter feeling wet rather than dry, except the way our mouths are made up doesn't react so harshly to dry stuff.  Weird!
 
How much can a peppers flesh affect testing, assuming dried? Comparing pods of approx. the same heat from say a rocotto and a habanero? Could you theoretically keep raising the SHU rating by producing thinner walled pods with the same heat?
 
Thank you for this thread 1tom2go.
 
danish said:
How much can a peppers flesh affect testing, assuming dried? Comparing pods of approx. the same heat from say a rocotto and a habanero? Could you theoretically keep raising the SHU rating by producing thinner walled pods with the same heat?
 
Thank you for this thread 1tom2go.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I hope that at least a few people learn something they didn't know that I have learned.  It can be confusing when people think their fresh pepper sauce is the same SHU as the dried powder of the same pepper.
 
I don't have any idea about your question really.  You are probably on to something with this idea.  It seems logical to me since there may be less dilution or water.
 
If tested fresh or "wet", the rocotto could end up with a lower SHU value even if it contains the same heat as the habanero because it may hold more water in the cells of flesh since these have thick walls.  
 
However, if we dry the the two peppers, grind them up, they could be close to each other in SHUs.
 
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