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lighting Lighting not cutting it anymore using 2xT8 need advice LED vs MH for my needed application

J

JesterJoker

I have read somewhere that supposedly a 90Watt LED is like having a 400W MH. (is there any truth to that.)

I see these LED grow lights, fairly inexpensive.

LED GROW LIGHT

so if using the equation from above is this like having a 57 Watt MH light? and only use 13 watts?

If so couldn't I designate 2-3 of these right above my mother plants, and grow using them?

I would probably opt for the RED only, I really don't need them to veg anymore, there all ready pepper monsters.


Any LED advice would be great. I can take pics of the setup, i'm using a couple 4" dual T8 daylight spectrum bulbs, and there losing flower like
snow each day, and I REALLY want some peppers, I almost cry seeing 20+ flowers a day fall off. (Just kidding but it pisses me off.)
 
I primarily have four 5 gallon buckets with the plants in them.

These plants are NOW about 18 inches tall, this was a while back in this picture NOW they are....... 24" across square, so there much bigger..

I would arrange them in a square formation instead of rectangular like they are now.

9-22-1.jpg


12 inches across width, and probably 15-16 inches long.

But I would need to use the canopy width across like 2ft square each plant.


these are 2 of the plants now.. about 18inches tall and 24 inches square from the big corners..

MmTAF.jpg
 
as for grow area I have 6x wider then what is there and 2x deeper, so if I need to spread out and do more floor coverage and put a few bigger lights and get a bigger grow from it its fine
I'm just wondering the actual effectiveness of the LED that I showed there.
 
From what I have been told by experts on our forums

You are better of getting an exensive led rather than cheaper ones.

I rember my first led bulb my cell phone put out more light.

If you look around the lighting posts there is a guy with a UFO led with a monsterous plant.

You would probaly be better to get more floros mabie even a hip.

If you can't aford a $65 4 bulb 2ft T-5.

Then you could stop by Walmart and get a Grow Floro it comes with all the suplies to wall mount it.

Then you could mount it vertically in between a few plants for sub canopy lighting.
 
really makes no difference in what type of light you are using (other than cost) but you need minimum 3000 lumens/ft[sup]2[/sup] for the plants to grow to maturity and fruit...

I have a couple of the UFOs I use for seedlings and they do fine but the LED mfg suggests using other light sources as a supplement for mature growing...
 
First off I would read the lighting 101 thread, it definitely covers a ton of info.

I must caveat this with I'm still new to this. This all is from the research I have done of preparation for next season. Bottom line: I went with a 600w MH/HPS digital dimmable setup.

I looked at both MH and Flouro options. I purposely decided against LED because 1. They are still pretty new which equates to expense and 2. I needed the extra heat. I have a 5x5x7 grow tent and in order to get the right lighting I need a 6 or 8 tube 4' T5 fixture or a MH fixture. So after posting on here I had a bunch of responses recommending the MH option. Some are hard corps T5 users, but I needed the heat and everything I read still points to them as the most used or best light source.

As far as LED, I am just still a bit skeptical. I am sure it has had amazing results, but at what price tag? Also, you get what you pay for so be careful with inexpensive units. Check the spectrum and output to make sure it is comparable. Lastly, 4 of them for 40 each is about what you can find a 400w MH.
 
Hey JesterJoker,

I like those plants, they're very lush looking.
I to start out with T8's, 4'x 6 bulb side by side 3 fixtures deep. At 18" is the max I go before the plants get moved to the MH 400watters. there's alot of light fall off from the flouros at that distance......they're great lights for seedlings and small plants but at some point you'll need to penetrate the canopy with something more powerful...

Greg
 
I lost that lower foliage and it stayed off since it had started flowering... I love it.. good old lollipop pepper trees.. LOL.
as my wife calls them.

There sturdy, the brainstrain on the right is a lot larger, the upper nodes alone are double/triple the size and quadruple the amount
last I checked there was to many flowers to count.. that's why I'm so worried about getting decent light..

How many feet above your 400 watt lights do you usually go.

I'll be pricing them tonight.. I'm very tempted to try just 1 all red led and see if it has the juice needed to do what's needed for a single plant.


by the way.. picture 1 is the same plants.. #1 and #2 are lined up as they are in the 1st picture.. just about 1.5 months between pictures.
 
I do not think I see anyone as asking this yet so I will. What florescent bulbs are you using? The 6500 (blue temp) are great for growth and poor for flowers and fruit. The 5000 (red temp) slow growth but are great for flower and fruit production. Next Question is how old are your current bulbs in the fixtures? I had a painters day off today and spent a good many hrs chatting with a true expert on lighting. He is a contractor that specializes in all types of lighting for his high end clients. He says florescent's are great but for optimal conditions expect/plan on changing them every 5-6 months as they lose their peak value around this time and go down hill even though they will keep working for yrs. I get the 10 pack of T8 bulbs for 26$ on the 6500 and 25$ for the 5000. That is around 2.50 a bulb and 15$ each 6 light high bay t8 fixture I am using every 6 months. Now he has shown me that it makes a huge diff on which or what style of florescent fixture you use as some are worse then average on the amount of wasted light/energy they direct out and others are far superior in this area. Things to look at when picking a florescent fixture is what type of ballast it has and the shape,color and angles of the hood as it relates to how light is captured and redirected down where you want it. Also unless you are buying a bulb with a distance listed for the lumens output listed on the package it is done from 2 to 3 feet away from the bulb. This is considered the average expected working distance in most applications for the bulb. While us plant addicts hang that florescent fixture 2 to 8 inches from the tops of the plants most other uses that they were made for have it 2 to 3 feet overhead. What this means is as I saw today with his meter is with a fresh bulb the lumen listing of 2850 of a 4 footer from about 2 feet away increased to around 5000 lumen at 4 inches away. This brings up the other problem with florescent lights, They have poor light depth penetration compared to HID lights so the under canopy suffers resulting in lower leaf drop. This is why you see many of us with refractive colored walls in the grow areas to help bounce light down farther onto the lower leaves to reduce this problem.
 
I'm running 6500K daylight

Bulb Wattage 32.0
ENERGY STAR Qualified No
Energy Efficient Yes
Rapid Start No
Lumens 2700.0
Dimmable No
Base Type Plug-in
Plug-In Type Medium bi pin
Package Quantity 2.0
Rated Life (Hours) 20000.0
Indoor/Outdoor For indoor or enclosed outdoor use only
Tube Type Linear
Light Color Daylight
Color Temperature (Kelvins) 6500.0


should I be changing to the 5000k color temperature while flowering, or some small cfl 2700K? I need to read that light thread again.

If anything.. from the info I was given I need 3000 lumens per sqft at least, im running the cheap walmart dual 48" shop light..
 
Yes if you are in flower/fruit mode or stage and that is what you want then the 5k lights or even one of each in the fixtures. Another thing you may think about is if you can buy one of the 6 bulb high bay fixtures at home depot which by being 6 bulbs across will allow more light to the 2 plants under it and put the old 2 bulb fixture side by side with the other one for the other 2 plants. This would for under a 100$ at least double available light for each of the 4 plants. As others have said already florescent and HID lighting is proven and LED is still not fully figured out or many of the cheaper ones at least still need supplemental light from one of the other sources.
 
You also have to stop reading crap published by LED sellers.....remember what they are selling. Does it sound likely to you that an LED produces 4 times as much light as HID?

If it sounds like poop and smells like poop, it's poop.
Read Omri's "lighting 101" article at the top of the page.

Flower drop probable causes:

1. Day temp too high >95F
2. Night temp too low <65F
3. Too much nitrogen fertilizer
4. Too much water
5. Low light levels (reduces fertility).
6. Very low humidity (reduces fertility)
7. Poor air circulation (air circulation contributes to pollination).
8. Lack of pollinating insects.
9. Size of pot
10. Too much mineral in feedwater.
11. Too much grower attention/anxiety.
 
willard3 said:
You also have to stop reading crap published by LED sellers.....remember what they are selling. Does it sound likely to you that an LED produces 4 times as much light as HID?

If it sounds like poop and smells like poop, it's poop.
Read Omri's "lighting 101" article at the top of the page.

Flower drop probable causes:

1. Day temp too high >95F
2. Night temp too low <65F
3. Too much nitrogen fertilizer
4. Too much water
5. Low light levels (reduces fertility).
6. Very low humidity (reduces fertility)
7. Poor air circulation (air circulation contributes to pollination).
8. Lack of pollinating insects.
9. Size of pot
10. Too much mineral in feedwater.
11. Too much grower attention/anxiety.
Click to expand...
+1
 
My MH reflectors have 7200k temp bulbs, I had plants that flowered, produced peppers and ripened all under that color temp, now my flowers that I grow will be placed under the HPS at 2100k.....that's a different situation .

Greg
 
JesterJoker said:
How many feet above your 400 watt lights do you usually go.

I'll be pricing them tonight.. I'm very tempted to try just 1 all red led and see if it has the juice needed to do what's needed for a single plant.
Click to expand...

They say to put your hand under the light at the height of the plants. If it is too hot, its too low.

If you are pricing them, I would definitely check out ebay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=MH+Light&_sacat=See-All-Categories you can usually get them brand new from the same place you are looking at online, but with free shipping. I paid 200 for mine and 400w ones go for a litte less (about 130-160ish). You may find a great deal though. I Love the fact that it came with both MH and HPS bulbs. THE MH puts out 60,000 lumens with 5200k color temp which is perfect for seedlings and growth, while the HPS puts out 89,000 lumens and has 2100k temp for fruiting. Scroll down to the middle of the page and there is a vid that does a comparison http://www.ebay.com/itm/600W-HEAVY-DUTY-WING-KIT-DELUXE-GROW-LIGHT-HPS-MH-TIMER-DIGITAL-BALLAST-/270822750102?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0e4b3796

Whatever you choose, keep us posted. Very interesting thread.
 
My latest find tonight, while looking for a good fit for my grow.

This looks pretty cool, its a outdoor floodlight but its 4100 lumens, but its 6500k like my lights now.

light.jpg

light2.jpg

light3.jpg

light4.jpg

light5.jpg

light6.jpg

light7.jpg

light8.jpg


I think over a single decent sized motherplant it should produce enough light? any thoughts.

Its lower power, I also noticed a 300 watt equivalent long shaped 3900 lumen 65watt cfl, and I would just need to make a reflector and put it into a standard base.

Thoughts? is this crazy to think of using this.. I will eventually get a light as MGOLD86 has recommended.. MORE LUMENS, MORE COVERAGE

probably like.. this.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/400-watt-400w-Dimmable-HPS-MH-Grow-Light-System-Set-Kit-/150656047425?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item68c836719d

or the 600watt one same type.. I'm trying to keep the budget small right now.

Big thing for me.. if plants only need 3000 lumens, I can at around the same cost, get 4 of those lights if they were to work, and put them on the individual plants or cluster them and raise a little
for better spread.
 
Any decent chile plant will have a 3' diameter leaf canopy.

Multiply 3000 lumens/square ft *(area of plant canopy square ft) = lumens

Find lumens/watt for desired lamp = number of watts required

Make lamp color temp around 6000 deg kelvin.

Do the arithmetic before you buy the luminaire, not the other way 'round.
 
There are allot of different ways to do this I feel (some more expensive than others). I will admit that I prefer time tested and prov en.

I chose to veg under HO T-5
111b64a9.jpg




Once ready for flowering stage I prefer HID HPS lamps. As to the flowers falling off, that happened to me years back. It turned out to be excessive Nitrogen levels when I should have have higher Phosphates levels.
 
Costeve said:
There are allot of different ways to do this I feel (some more expensive than others). I will admit that I prefer time tested and prov en.

I chose to veg under HO T-5
111b64a9.jpg




Once ready for flowering stage I prefer HID HPS lamps. As to the flowers falling off, that happened to me years back. It turned out to be excessive Nitrogen levels when I should have have higher Phosphates levels.
Click to expand...


Awesome I was just looking at light meters. Is that screenshot under your HPS? I really want to get my flower drop under control, I'm using a 3 part, Jungle Juice right now.

under the direction of willard3 and others I dropped my nutrient level to like 550. I was running 1000 but it was lots of big leaves so alot of nitrogen.
 
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