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Making dirt for the first time... some questions...

U

UltraZelda64

This year, I decided to try the cheap route and make my own potting soil mix because the premade stuff costs so damn much and I'm going to need a lot. Here are the main components I am thinking about using:

-Topsoil as a base. The bag (Scotts TurfBuilder Seeding Soil) says it includes wetting agents and includes no grass seed. It was on sale at Lowe's for like 39 cents for a big bag, because apparently the company is discontinuing it in favor of something else, I couldn't pass up that price. The bags say they contain 1.5 cubic feet of topsoil, so when I mix the other ingredients, I'll try to adjust them to one full bag of topsoil and make more batches of potting soil mix as I need it.

-Vermiculite, a small amount, but not really sure how much to use. I'm thinking less vermiculite than perlite though, because I read that it can hold water a bit *too* well, maybe two medium-size handfuls per bag of topsoil. Got it half-off at Lowe's, and even at full price in bigger bags it's still cheaper than perlite.

-Perlite for plenty of air pockets. Still need to get some, I didn't yet because it's pretty high priced for such a small bag. I'm thinking maybe three handfuls per batch?

-Coarse sand for weight, because all of my plants became top-heavy and highly vulnerable to falling over in the wind last year by summer and fall. I have no clue how much of this to use, but because it has similar properties as perlite and is poor in nutrients, I know it will be a very small proportion. If wind blowing the plants over was not a problem, I wouldn't even consider this.

-Sphagnum peat moss, a decent amount to fluff the mix up and add organic material and additional water retention. Again, I'm not sure how much to add per bag of topsoil... I just know it'll be more than the perlite, vermiculite and sand.

Now, the problem is... I don't have a compost pile, so I can't easily add organic material in the form of compost. This explains why I am turning to peat moss--it's right at the nearby Lowe's, easy to get. Is Sphagnum peat moss really a good enough alternative or should I try to find some decent compost? I've never adjusted soil pH either, so I'm thinking peat moss might be a PITA to work with due to its acidity and the potential need to check the pH and possibly increase the alkalinity of the final mixture. So to sum this paragraph up, Sphagnum peat moss vs. compost?

Also, from what I've read, it seems that there is some overlap in features between perlite, vermiculite and sand. Too much of any of them can be bad, and with the overlapping effects, it seems that too much of all three in total can be bad. Any suggestions on the amounts of each or the total of the three to use?

On the bright side, the local Lowe's now carries compost bins, so soon enough I'll be able to buy one and be able to start composting. So hopefully by next year I won't have a hard time obtaining compost.
 
Can you not find vermiculite and perlite in bulk (e.g. 4 cubic foot bags)? The price is a lot better than the small bags. If you can't find it locally, you can order it from http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/ . Since they're both pretty light, the shipping isn't too bad. It might still be cheaper than buying small bags...
 
Hmm... well Lowes had big bags of vermiculite, which I got, but they only had small bags of perlite. The site you linked has a 4 cu. ft. bag as you described for $24... that's a possibility, pretty decent price. Thanks for the link.
 
Garden soil is pretty cheep here. Mixed with Kansas prairie top soil (Free) and some perlite is all I use. Use larger pots with a few rocks or gravel in the bottom will solve them from falling over. I tend to keep it simple.
 
Not a pro but I have seen some good gardening videos that use compost with a pinch on topsoil and it seems to grow plants large and have sufficient nutrients and soil properties needed to grow peppers. All that stuff is fancy but I believe unnecessary.
 
robbyjoe01 said:
Garden soil is pretty cheep here. Mixed with Kansas prairie top soil (Free) and some perlite is all I use. Use larger pots with a few rocks or gravel in the bottom will solve them from falling over. I tend to keep it simple.
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Hmm... the rock idea might be worth trying. I just don't want them to plug the drainage holes or eat too far into the usable container space for the roots to grow.

woody3says said:
Check ou the sticky "All about soil" up top. Lots of mixes there to give you an idea.
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I knew that was coming soon enough. I should have put the disclaimer, I read that topic, and have got about all I can get from it. Which is why I am posting here; obviously that thread didn't completely answer my questions, and in fact, left me with even more unanswered questions after reading it.
 
If you have any ash from un-treated timber you can put that in there too. The plants i had in the ground the last two seasons loved it.
 
I think there is some confusion as to what you need to add and why you need it.

You should look at the location of your plants your weather conditions, the amount of sun the plants will get and come to a conclusion as to what type of soil will need that will help the plants grow and thrive in YOUR specific situation.

If your in a location like AZ that is hot dry and the temps can get to 110 you should look be looking to make a mix that has good water retention qualities that will help keep the plants from drying out, but at the same time you need to keep in mind that the mix also needs to allow air to get to the roots.

For this type of mix I would go with Perlite and not Vermiculite, sand or some type of clay that will cut off the oxygen flow to the roots. Vermiculite is similar to Perlite in that they are both close to pH neutral, but Vermiculite is not as good in adding airflow to a mix and is not as good in retaining water as Perlite. Since the above example requires more water retention you would go with Perlite over vermiculite. However if your area isn't really hot or dry then Vermiculite maybe a better option since you really don't need all the extra water retention and Vermiculite is a lot less expensive, plus vermiculite has traces of calcium and magnesium which are both very important in growing peppers.

Now if you reverse the situation above and you are in a rather cold area where the avg temp is around 70, and the plants won't be getting more than 6 hours of sun a day then you really don't want the plant to hold on to any extra water as peepers don't do as well in a mix that is always wet. Then you wouldn't use Perlite or Vermiculite and would probably go with an additive like sand to help the drainage of the plant and ensure that the plant isn't always wet. However you have to keep in mind that sand won't have any trace elements of calcium or magnesium and you will need to eventually add those either to the soil directly or foliar feed them.

As far as adding peat moss to your mix again you need to first determine what the best mix for your plants will be and then take a look at what's in your top soil that you already purchased. If it already includes some form of peat then you may not need to add any however if it's mainly a dirt mixture and rather dense you may need to add a lot.

Also you need to understand that peat moss is not the same as compost and is not a replacement for compost. Compost is rich in nutrients and minerals that help the plant grow. Peat most although is decayed moss it has no nutrient or mineral values. It's main use in soil is to retain water.

If you don't have any compost you can always add in some fish emulsion when you fertilize your plants until you can get your compost bin going.

If you haven't picked up a compost bin yet take a look at the 7 tier worm farm. I've had great success with mine and adding brewed worm tea seems to be better than the plants that had compost added to the soil.

Good luck with your plants.
 
You should find some organic material whether its manure,compost or better yet worm castings.I would check craigs list, I see worm castings on there all the time.If you are using peat moss,make sure to check your ph level.I had to use lime last year when I used peat moss.This year I'm using coco coir,its cheaper yet.Like mentioned before check out the sticky on soil it is very informative and will steer you in the right direction. :dance:
 
LGHT: That clears it up quite a bit, but at least one thing you mentioned contradicts with what I read over the last few days.

First, I should describe the summer weather here and my past experience here... it tends to be 85-95 degrees Fahrenheit and humid, occasionally getting a few degrees hotter or cooler, and the plants will be where my potted plants were last year: on the porch getting full morning sun until around noon to 1PM. I try to protect the plants from excess rain to prevent disease, I'm thinking about putting some plastic film up this year. I had some problems with the soil in my potted plants drying out fast last year, which is one thing I'm trying to prevent this year. Maybe the problem was pot size, they were 9" pots, this year I plan on using 12" pots (hopefully that's big enough...). Still, those pots not directly in the sun seemed to hold water a decent amount of time longer than those right in the receiving end of the sun's rays. Cloudy days made it much easier, causing all of the plants to hold water for a few days at a time. By the time fall came and temperatures dropped, watering was much more pleasant... twice a week maybe.

I've read at a few sites after doing a Google search of something along the lines of "perlite vs. vermiculite" that vermiculite holds ridiculous amounts of water (supposedly much better than perlite) and perlite is better for creating air pockets. That's the major conflict I've found with what I read, as you're saying that the exact opposite is true (perlite retains more water). Either way, I was leaning slightly toward perlite to begin with for some reason, and I still am. I'm still kind of confused on the water retention of perlite vs. vermiculite.

You cleared up the compost vs. peat moss question very well though; it seems clear now that the peat is no substitute for proper compost. There are so many potting soil mixes that use a base of peat moss--peat here, peat there--I guess that's where I got the confusion.

As I mentioned about the sand, the only--*only*--reason I'm even considering it is to add weight to the pots to prevent plants from blowing over like they did last year. They had a tendency to fall over practically every other day when they got big enough with just a slight breeze, and the fast-drying soil made the problem that much worse. I think them falling off the porch and into the weeds was the primary reason some of them got seriously infested with aphids by fall, but I could be wrong. The pots were just too lightweight, and the soil-mixes sticky thread mentions sand as being useful for adding some weight for top-heavy plants, but it also clearly mentions some serious downsides as well (lack of nutrients, drainage, etc.). The plan was to add just enough weight to prevent this from happening. I definitely don't want to add too much sand, but if it can make the pots a bit heavier and prevent more falling just as the plants are going wild without setting them back noticeably, that would be perfect.

Thanks for the help. Since I already bought some vermiculite, I will probably use a very small amount, but I'll definitely be using more perlite overall now. And I'll look for some compost or something similar and forget about peat.

BTW--I should mention that the potting soil I used, all I could really find around here--ironically named (Miracle-Gro) Moisture Control, I have read claims online of people saying it holds water *too* well. Certainly not in my case.

bhut camp: Yeah, I'll be on the lookout for compost or something similar. I'm thinking about asking around at local greenhouses.
 
All the Lowes and similar stores around here sell bags of composted manure for cheap. Also, we have compost sites in most counties. It's the place you drop off leaves or other yard waste for free. They also sell finished compost or even give it away for free. Maybe try a google search for your county + compost or something like that.
 
Ultra...what I did last year to hold down the 5 gallon buckets I used was I went to Wal Mart and got some camping spike. You know, those little metal rods with a half hook at the tip? I just put one on each side of each pot straight into the drainage holes that I drilled into the buckets.
My plants didnt move ONE time! And that was through plenty of rain storms and windy days!
 
Hot Pooper said:
Ultra...what I did last year to hold down the 5 gallon buckets I used was I went to Wal Mart and got some camping spike. You know, those little metal rods with a half hook at the tip? I just put one on each side of each pot straight into the drainage holes that I drilled into the buckets.
My plants didnt move ONE time! And that was through plenty of rain storms and windy days!
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Good idea HP. I guess you could also drill a hole diagonally from the lower side of the bucket through the bottom of it so that you could move it around if needed.

Did that make sense? I'm not exactly a wordsmith....
 
muskymojo said:
All the Lowes and similar stores around here sell bags of composted manure for cheap. Also, we have compost sites in most counties. It's the place you drop off leaves or other yard waste for free. They also sell finished compost or even give it away for free. Maybe try a google search for your county + compost or something like that.
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I forgot to mention: Anything poo... I avoid. Sorry, I can deal with it if it's dead, rotting plant matter of any kind or even certain rotten insect remains or something, but if it came out of an animal's--any animal's--ass, I'll pass. :sick: That's just nasty and it reeks. I think I saw some manure-based "compost" at Lowe's as you described, but I walked right past it (on purpose, of course...). Eew... call me crazy, but when I'm driving down the highway and I smell either manure/shit or dead skunk, I *immediately* close all windows (if open and it's not too late), reach for the "circulate" button on the climate control system to keep that stench outside the vehicle as much as possible, and start holding my breath (and often slam the gas to get the hell away from it faster as well, screw speed limits).

Hot Pooper said:
Ultra...what I did last year to hold down the 5 gallon buckets I used was I went to Wal Mart and got some camping spike. You know, those little metal rods with a half hook at the tip? I just put one on each side of each pot straight into the drainage holes that I drilled into the buckets.
My plants didnt move ONE time! And that was through plenty of rain storms and windy days!
Click to expand...
I was considering something similar, but involving nails or screws. I decided against it for one reason... I don't want the pots permanently pinned down, that's one of the advantages of pots anyway, their portability. I would hate to anchor them down real good early in the spring, and by summer when they've grown big enough to invade each other's territory, not be able to move them out of each other's way. Other than that little problem, this idea was tempting. But too risky, because picking the pot up and moving it for pest examination, watering, etc. would be made more difficult. If only they made some pots with a surrounding disc near the base with easily-accessible holes for mounting the whole thing to a surface with screws and easily removing/moving it to another surface...
 
UltraZelda64 said:
I forgot to mention: Anything poo... I avoid. Sorry, I can deal with it if it's dead, rotting plant matter of any kind or even certain rotten insect remains or something, but if it came out of an animal's--any animal's--ass, I'll pass. :sick: That's just nasty and it reeks. I think I saw some manure-based "compost" at Lowe's as you described, but I walked right past it (on purpose, of course...). Eew... call me crazy, but when I'm driving down the highway and I smell either manure/shit or dead skunk, I *immediately* close all windows (if open and it's not too late), reach for the "circulate" button on the climate control system to keep that stench outside the vehicle as much as possible, and start holding my breath (and often slam the gas to get the hell away from it faster as well, screw speed limits).
Click to expand...

COMPOSTED manure does not stink. When you are driving down the highway you are smelling FRESH poop. Next time you're at Lowes tear open a bag and smell it. It smells (and looks) like dirt. I use manure in my garden and it does not smell.

Kitchen scraps will smell awful if you put them in the sun for a few days. Once they are composted they will also smell and look like rich dirt.
 
Compost is my best friend. I always have a pile of brown leaves around to control weeds or cover to hold moisture in the soil. Later to be used with grass clippings to make my organic fert. (I normaly don't use table scraps in my compost). Like Muskymojo said the store bought compost has no real bad smell. I will say I have a friend that uses fish guts in his compost (stinks like hell-works like crazy) but I'm like you i can't deal with the smell that close to home. The organic material i get from plant material provides enough for me and doesn't smell that bad(alittle more than store bought). Ya never know you might get interested in doing your own after you see the improvements in your garden with the store bought.:)
 
Make a "X" with a 2x4 and screw the bottom of the bucket into it. That should make a nice sturdy stand. Go to the back of the lumber aisle at Lowes. They have cutoff pieces for like 50 cents......a dollar a bucket isn't half bad.
 
UltraZelda64 said:
I've read at a few sites after doing a Google search of something along the lines of "perlite vs. vermiculite" that vermiculite holds ridiculous amounts of water (supposedly much better than perlite) and perlite is better for creating air pockets.
Click to expand...

Your correct I usually get the "lites" mixed up from time to time. Just make sure you don't use too much if your already using a mix that has peat moss in it. I've never used that moisture control so not sure what's in it. On a side note if you don't want to use sand to weigh down your pots you could always just put a large rock or brick in the bottom before you add your soil.
 
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