breeding Maybe cross pollination can change pods??

[AJ Drew]

Sometimes we think science if much more advanced than it really is.  For years, folklore has said if you grow something like cayenne next to sweet banana you will get hot banana pods via cross pollination.  People who favor science to folklore say that is impossible.  That the dna will be in the seed but not the pepper.  That cross pollination can not change the flavor of a pepper.

Thing is, until recently when we were talking animals the thought was that the placenta was fetal tissue.  Thus, it would have the dna of both the mother and father.  Now that was the thinking in animals, not plants.  But guess what?  Yep, science changed its mind in 2013.  As a result of a study at Cornell University.  That study indicates that the placenta of an animal is built according to the father's dna.
 
Does this study apply to plants?  Nope.  But it does go to show that science changes its mind on this and many other topics.  So with the huge volume of folklore out there, I gotta wonder if maybe science isnt going to change its mind on plants too.

 

[Zonengorg]

Didn't know that ajdrew! To me, science is about learning, discovery, study etc. I am no science man, but noticed that "when they say something later they say the opposite..." that's what I've noticed... Don't mind me, I don't know what I am talking about   xD xD

 

[karoo]

Sometimes we think science if much more advanced than it really is.  For years, folklore has said if you grow something like cayenne next to sweet banana you will get hot banana pods via cross pollination.  People who favor science to folklore say that is impossible.  That the dna will be in the seed but not the pepper.  That cross pollination can not change the flavor of a pepper.

Thing is, until recently when we were talking animals the thought was that the placenta was fetal tissue.  Thus, it would have the dna of both the mother and father.  Now that was the thinking in animals, not plants.  But guess what?  Yep, science changed its mind in 2013.  As a result of a study at Cornell University.  That study indicates that the placenta of an animal is built according to the father's dna.
 
Does this study apply to plants?  Nope.  But it does go to show that science changes its mind on this and many other topics.  So with the huge volume of folklore out there, I gotta wonder if maybe science isnt going to change its mind on plants too.

Aj , I have to disagree . The placenta is still fetal tissue , as before .
All they found was that the male DNA is more dominant in determining the pnenotype and function of the placenta.
So, not a change of mind , but a development of existing knowledge.

 

[JRZ]

Interesting study!
All I know is that I seem to get a strangely varied selection of pod shapes on my plants which are grown in close proximity to a number of other pepper varieties.

(All three pods from a single white bhut jolokia plant)
 
I've never had any with a different color or taste, but I always find it interesting how different the shape can be.
Granted, I don't actually grow any plants in isolation so I don't have a control to compare pod shape variance with.

 

[solid7]

Pod variation occurs with environmental factors, just like fetal development does. When a mother smokes or drinks whilst carrying child, we know that there are risks of birth defects. Such is the case when you grow a plant - any plant - outside of the climate and conditions which it originally developed in. Changes in heat and humidity, we already know have major impacts on all aspects of plant growth, and by extension, the fruit. Let's not even get started on nutrients...

First pods in a soil grown plant almost always come out bigger. They also, in my experience, tend to come out not tasting quite right. It seems that the fruit is produced in the initial kick, when the plant is uptaking optimum nutrition, before losing any of that to other processes. (like multiple flowerings) This tapers down, and soon - provided no other external influences - the plant starts to produce a steady stream of homogenous fruits. There's lots of changes that occur right around that time, I'm just being oversimplistic.

I'm sure that there are simple scientific explanations, if someone is looking for them. Which would satisfy both basic tenets of your subject...

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

Interesting study!
All I know is that I seem to get a strangely varied selection of pod shapes on my plants which are grown in close proximity to a number of other pepper varieties.
 
I've never had any with a different color or taste, but I always find it interesting how different the shape can be.
Granted, I don't actually grow any plants in isolation so I don't have a control to compare pod shape variance with.

 
I'm not a botanist so my observations strictly from experience. Generally most isolated peppers will grow true to phenotype, 1st pic below, but some will exhibit differences, 2nd pic, and others are off considerably, the rest were both listed as 7 Pot Bubblegum but they were two different plants. The incorrect phenotype has the correct calyx color but the correct phenotype is incorrect, https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=599&q=7+pot+bubblegum&oq=7+pot+bubblegum&gs_l=img.3...2001.9583.0.10569.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.0.0.mAhEAiuAt1g. YMMV
 
 
 

 
 

 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 
Pepper pod genetics 101 anyone?> http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php

 

[Wicked Mike]

Pod variation occurs with environmental factors, just like fetal development does. When a mother smokes or drinks whilst carrying child, we know that there are risks of birth defects. Such is the case when you grow a plant - any plant - outside of the climate and conditions which it originally developed in. Changes in heat and humidity, we already know have major impacts on all aspects of plant growth, and by extension, the fruit. Let's not even get started on nutrients...

First pods in a soil grown plant almost always come out bigger. They also, in my experience, tend to come out not tasting quite right. It seems that the fruit is produced in the initial kick, when the plant is uptaking optimum nutrition, before losing any of that to other processes. (like multiple flowerings) This tapers down, and soon - provided no other external influences - the plant starts to produce a steady stream of homogenous fruits. There's lots of changes that occur right around that time, I'm just being oversimplistic.

I'm sure that there are simple scientific explanations, if someone is looking for them. Which would satisfy both basic tenets of your subject...

 
Bingo.
 
I've been saying this for a while. We get rather severe environmental conditions down here in the summer; incredibly high temperatures, scorching UV, and a ton of rain. Nutritional deficiencies, particularly Calcium, Magnesium, and Iron, which are readily leeched from the soil, abound. I have a third-year Brainstrain plant grown from seeds I got from Cappy. It has always produced picture-perfect fruit. At the moment, the leaves are so light in color they're almost white, and the pods are far smoother and not exactly "brainy" in shape.
 
As another example, my 7 Pot Madballz Caramel plants are flushing out redder pods at the moment. It seems to me there was a discussion a while back about the effects of fertilizers on the pod coloration in the earlier Bhut Jolokia x Pimenta de Neyde generations. I still have a few plants that were from F4 or so, and they produce wildly different pods from one month to the next.
 
Although I'm going to go with science over folklore on this one, at the same time...
 
A species is generally defined as a group of organisms which are capable of producing fertile offspring. It then follows that organisms of different species cannot produce fertile offspring. But...what about interspecific crosses? They exist. If organisms of two different species are capable of producing fertile offspring, doesn't it follow that they can't possibly be two different species, according to our original definition?

 

[AJ Drew]

All they found was that the male DNA is more dominant in determining the pnenotype and function of the placenta.

Yes,and in a pepper just about all the heat comes form the placenta.  Study was animals,not plans. Just makes me question if they will suddenly change their minds on plants as well.

 

[Tarzan]

Did any one of you actually try pollinating the bell pepper or another  capsaicin-free pepper with reaper (for example to amplify the resulting heat) and still live to tell the tale? I can try it, but I have to say I really doubt it.
 
The thing is, I always have to find a position for my peppers that is far enough from my father's sweet peppers. He can't stand any heat and he said that some of his peppers, years (probably tens of years) ago, my peppers "infected" his bells that turned into hot peppers. I always told him he's crazy and there's no science that could explain his wild speculations, but hey, perhaps he is right all along, and I was wrong.
 
Definitely going to try pollinating my sweet peppers. Still 99.9% non believer though! 

 

[AJ Drew]

The thing is, I always have to find a position for my peppers that is far enough from my father's sweet peppers. He can't stand any heat and he said that some of his peppers, years (probably tens of years) ago, my peppers "infected" his bells that turned into hot peppers. I always told him he's crazy and there's no science that could explain his wild speculations, but hey, perhaps he is right all along, and I was wrong.
 

That is what peeks my curiosity.  So much folklore.  So many dads, moms,grandpas, grandmas, saying growing hot peppers near sweet peppers causes some of the sweet to go hot.  I -thought- I had it with banana peppers once, but figured they just mixed up some of the seeds.  Now that animal science indicates dad's dna is the road map for the placenta in animals, gotta wonder if the same might not be true of plants.

 

[lionbeat]

I always thought it to be true, didn't knew the science doesn't back it up. It's a common knowledge around here not to plant any hot peppers near sweet ones as some might add some heat.

 

[Tarzan]

And then another question emerges. If in fact the  sweet pepper can get hot, because 'hot' pollen is responsible for the placenta, how about "free for all" pollination, various hot peppers growing on the same spot. You could get the mixed placental tissue with all kinds and strengths of heat. None of the peppers would end up being the pepper you like. And another question, does placenta have any effect on how the pod looks like in the end? I'd say it does, and I'd say in that case, you could easily also get completely off pheno visual appearance of the pods.
 
Good topic. I intend to do a little research. Hope the sweet peppers I have can be cross pollinated, just in case, I'll sneak up to my father's peppers and sabotage (and mark appropriately) a few bells. I'll take semen of a reaper and brown moruga to do it. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[solid7]

The "hot bells" sounds like a placebo effect, to me.

It never ceases to amaze me how little tolerance for heat some people have. The threshold for what some call "spicy" isn't even on the same planet with what I consider the start of spicy. So, with that in mind, it stands to reason that the elder complaining of the spicy peppers, may have just had a case of the ass for you and your peppers.

The real question is, has anyone - other than the complainant - ever actually tasted these peppers that were "grown too close"?

 

[Tarzan]

Two Red Bull's Horn pepper flowers hopefully pollinated. I'll see in a few days, hopefully they are going to grow. If - when they do, I'll get it to fully ripe and try it myself. Then I'll take two identical parts of self pollinated and "hot crossed" to my dad and see if he can figure out anything. I'll save the seeds of any possible successful crossing, grow it next year somewhere isolated from any other pepper and see what happens.
 
Practically all the peppers on that plant are identical, if the crossing somehow affects the placental tissue and/or visual appearance of the pod, I think I should notice.
 
 
PS: I am a nay sayer as well. 

 

[juanitos]

 
A species is generally defined as a group of organisms which are capable of producing fertile offspring. It then follows that organisms of different species cannot produce fertile offspring. But...what about interspecific crosses? They exist. If organisms of two different species are capable of producing fertile offspring, doesn't it follow that they can't possibly be two different species, according to our original definition?

that's also how i thought species were separated but there are other ways to define a species that don't including anything to do with the ability to reproduce. src
 
i agree that environmental factors and current plant growth affects pod shape / viability. Particularly seen in BER in plants with very high vegetative growth or moisture swings. src
 
i have for years and currently am growing sweet peppers next to superhots and not had any of the sweet peppers become hot... biquinho, banana, minibells, bells... all have had no heat.

 

[AJ Drew]

The most common occurrence I see in forums is sweet banana turning hot after being grown next to cayenne.  Thing is, sweet banana and hot banana look alike so I can see mistakes happening.  Have also heard hot peppers turn tomato hot, just cant believe that one.

 

[Calamari Kid]

 Have also heard hot peppers turn tomato hot, just cant believe that one.

Love "Spicey Tomato" sauce, but I gotta agree with you, can't believe that spicy-tomatoes exist either.
 
I AM actually doing a free-for-all grow - Ghosts, Datils, Habs - as well as random hot mix. Next year's grow should be very interesting.

 

[AJ Drew]

Love "Spicey Tomato" sauce, but I gotta agree with you, can't believe that spicy-tomatoes exist either.
 

I dont tend to believe it either, but there a story I want to share that might make you laugh.  Mother was a city girl.  Father raised on a dairy farm.  Dad passed.  When it was time, mom came to live with us.  Looking out the window at breakfast table, she saw my first billy goat mounting a lamb.  Awww, that will make cute babies.  We explained that while different species can have sex, they cannot produce offspring.

Later we learned we were wrong.  It is very rare.  It did not happen with our odd couple.  But sheep and goats can produce off spring.

Is one of the reasons I am often told I am wrong.  I do not think Mother Nature's rule book is all that comprehensive.  I think there are weird goofy things happening all the time and nature is not as simple as we would like to think.

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

http://www.motherofahubbard.com/pollination-myths/
 

MYTH 1: SWEET PEPPERS AND HOT PEPPERS NEED TO BE SEPARATED IN THE GARDEN, OR YOU’LL BE SURPRISED WITH HOT SWEET PEPPERS.
 
It is true that most varieties of hot and sweet peppers grown in home gardens are the same species, Capsicum annum, and capable of cross-pollinating, but that is the only grain of truth to this common pollination myth. Cross-pollination of almost any fruit or vegetable variety will only affect the NEXT generation of plants grown from the seeds. That means that you won’t know that cross-pollination has occurred until you save seeds from those peppers and grow them out the following year. Why does it only affect the next generation? The flesh of a pepper, like other fruits, doesn’t develop from the fertilized ovules — it develops from the ovary wall that surrounds them. This means that the genetics of the mother plant determine the characteristics of the fruit that is produced, not the genetics of the seed.
 


Basic flower anatomy (adapted from Wikimedia Commons).

 
What about the pepper seeds, you ask… shouldn’t they be hot? Capsaicin, the substance which gives peppers their heat, is not produced in the seeds at all, but is abundant in the inner membrane and fleshy interior ribs that support them.
So, basic botany explains how this myth is biologically implausible, but how much should you trust theory? Three summers ago, a friend asked me to start 6 seeds for him of Bhut Jolokia, or “Ghost Pepper” — the hottest pepper in the world at the time. Chris let me keep one of the plants, which I planted in the garden right alongside my other sweet and hot peppers. The Bhut Jolokia was one of the most prolific peppers we grew that year, spreading taller and wider than any of the other plants (over 5 ft high) and producing loads of scary-red peppers. I harvested the Ghost Peppers with gloves and a doubled ziplock bag, but we never tasted any additional heat in any of the other 18 varieties of peppers that I grew that year, including the sweet peppers grown immediately nearby

 

[AJ Drew]

The_NorthEast_Chiliman - OP.  Third sentence.  "People who favor science to folklore say that is impossible."

What you have just done was walked into a room that was talking about Pluto might not be a planet and and announced everyone was wrong and then shared your 6th grade science book.  I know and I think most people in this thread know that science tends to believe exactly what you just said.  The point is that until just a few years ago,they believed wrong about animal placenta.  So folk are speculating, they are questioning, if maybe they got it wrong with plants.

My god man, you are like the Smoking Man at a UFO convention. Speculation can not be wrong because speculation is not a statement.