soil mrgrowguy's 2014 DWC hydro and Soil comparison

SichuaneseFoodFan · Apr 15, 2014

your plants look really good - nice job

mrgrowguy · Apr 27, 2014

Thanks!

Here are some updates. pics incoming, and a video where I explain a few things. Going to upload it to youtube in a few minutes.

Cayennemist · Apr 28, 2014

This is a cool thing that you are doing.

I have to point out though, I have had the exact opposite results doing almost the exact experiment. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am pointing out that different grow methods work better for different people. My buddy Spongy grows some nice DWC plants, but then again the biggest 2 plants I have ever seen are pure in Organic soil.

I don't mean to be a a-hole and sH!# on your experiment, that is not my goal. I just don't want newbies the think that this is "proof" that Hydro is better..

Everybody should try DWC once just for the learning that goes in to it, and for some people it may be the way to go.

Good job man, keep it up.

mrgrowguy · Apr 28, 2014

Cayennemist said:
This is a cool thing that you are doing.

I have to point out though, I have had the exact opposite results doing almost the exact experiment. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am pointing out that different grow methods work better for different people. My buddy Spongy grows some nice DWC plants, but then again the biggest 2 plants I have ever seen are pure in Organic soil.

I don't mean to be a a-hole and sH!# on your experiment, that is not my goal. I just don't want newbies the think that this is "proof" that Hydro is better..

Everybody should try DWC once just for the learning that goes in to it, and for some people it may be the way to go.

Good job man, keep it up.

Np at all, I don't take offense, but this is in fact proof that in this stiuation the hydro is incredibly more productive. But yes, without claiming anything, I just took pics of my grow and gave direct comparison information.

If it helps, I can give more details to this particular situation... as it now seems necessary.

The soil:
fox farm ocean forest mixed with 20%ish perlite, nothing more.

DWC:
flora nova grow and bloom (depending on timing) (~900ppm total with other additives)
cal-mag (4tsp per gal)
silicone (1-2tsp per gal)
PH'd to 5.8 at all times

That's it. The first few posts show the dates and situations of each plants beginnings.

Should any newbs, as you say, see this, they can now take into account pretty much every aspect of my environment and growing conditions

since plants were outside, temps started at 50deg at night and 70 deg during the day to present where we are averaging 60-65deg at night and 75-79deg during the day.

mrgrowguy · Apr 28, 2014

mrgrowguy · Apr 28, 2014

Cayennemist said:
I have to point out though, I have had the exact opposite results doing almost the exact experiment. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am pointing out that different grow methods work better for different people. My buddy Spongy grows some nice DWC plants, but then again the biggest 2 plants I have ever seen are pure in Organic soil.

I don't mean to be a a-hole and sH!# on your experiment, that is not my goal. I just don't want newbies the think that this is "proof" that Hydro is better..

So I got to thinking and I have actually had a lot of experience in hydro and soil in at least a few different species of plants. And I, as everyone, went through my learning curve. And I have had a few near [plant] death experiences. And one thing I learned about hydro in general is that it "seems" to yield great results simply because you are exposing the plant to its nutrients 100% of the time; an uninterrupted flow of what it needs. And if you can pull it off, I am confident that your results will always be improved.

I once thought that growing in soil should generate a larger root system than hydro because I thought that letting the soil go dry encouraged the roots to grow looking for water (which I absolutely agree then and now) and I know everyone would agree that stronger, bigger roots will mean a bigger, stronger plant. I just never imagined how MUCH more root system can be grown in hydro until I started consistently having successful grows. I also learned that if I totally submerge the roots at first, you will have more leader roots which will later later be the main roots branching off to many others. Later, once the roots are established in its permanent home, you can lower the water level to save on nutrient costs by not needing to mix as much. I use 30 gallon reservoirs for some of my grows, and filling a few of those can get costly for the hobby grower.

So more to the point, I also noticed that it can be very easy to have trouble with hydro. It is a great method, and could be easy to maintain, but it is also VERY easy to mess up, sometimes a little bit and sometimes a lot. Sometimes you think you know something and it turns out you missed something else. Ha, once I had plants growing in 5 gallon bucket DWC and I noticed one day that two plants were in shock. and it happened only after three days. Those three days were just after a water change and figured I didn't need to pay too close attention. Anyways, three days before, when I moved the bucket back, I ran the bucket over the silicone tube and put a tiny hole in the air line. So the DWC was out of O2 for three whole days. There was obvious rot starting, you could tell from the odor. Since I pierced one line, both buckets were fed from the same pump and both lines lost all pressure. I was able to save both plants, I had to get them healthy enough to clean and trim the roots.

Since then I have learned to run rubber, not silicon tubing just because it's more durable. And I now have two air stones per reservoir, each fed by a different pump source. This way, the only chance at this happening again is if both pumps fail, or both lines are simultaneously punctured.

But going through these and MANY other experiences, I have found that it is very easy to have a mistake that you may never even know what really happened. It could even do something as minor as stunt growth, which I feel is the more likely possibility in your observations. And I just want to point out that it is actually possible that some, or all of the comparisons that you have seen could have been perfectly successful grows, just as possible as all or some of them being flawed by even a simple error.

So, yes, I do agree with you that this comparison that I have going is just one instance. And, "results may vary." But, the way you stated it, made it seem like I needed to back myself up. I just wanted to show people the fun I am having in growing. I love to grow stuff. It is very weird, since I would have never guessed I would have been so into it.

I love what I see here on this forum and I have taken so much from it and utilized what I learn and use it for my own purpose. I can't wait to sample these peppers. But patience is very important. And plants take time. So, I feel fortunate to have healthy plants (so far - you never know what can happen in the future). I am glad have the opportunity to share it with whoever decides to look at it. And I hope everyone views every post with a grain of salt. Just take what you can and change it to work for yourself. And don't be afraid to evolve your methods. You won't get any better otherwise.

Cayennemist · Apr 28, 2014

Amen,

I feel bad now. You went through a lot of trouble in that last response. I never intended to troll you and I'm sorry if it seems that way.

Now I'm going to just say it, I think you are better at hydro than soil.

Soil is a uncontrollable highly variable thing. It has so many things going on that you can never predict the outcome exactly. That's were Hydro has soil beat. DWC is a controlled environment with exact amounts. That doesn't mean its better, but it does mean it is more predictable.To fully control soil would be playing god, because soil is comprised of organisms that are in control of them self's.

Your Idea of nutrients being available 100% of the time has validity, however the science of symbiotic relationships between plant and organism is still being explored all the time. Soil fertility is dependent on microbial life. Yes that can be sensitive, but once you learn how to optimize the little buggers you will have some damn good results with organics as well.

This would be a good read if you haven't already. Got to love the pepper trees http://thehotpepper.com/topic/30120-gurus-glog-2012/?hl=pepperguru

Please don't think I am out to prove you wrong, I am just trying to show you that your hydro skills may be offsetting your soil skills giving you skewed results in your experiment.

Cheers!

mrgrowguy · Apr 28, 2014

Thank you for clarifying for me, and no harm no fowl.

I am actually glad that all of this information came out anyways.

It is always good for people to make decisions based on as much information as possible.

So I do thank you for pointing out the variances and for your added information.

hogleg · Apr 28, 2014

i bad mouthed gh nutes to you on another thread. i would like to say no matter what nutes your using your grow looks great and very healthy.
i think noobs as well as experts can learn something from side by side comparisons like this.

quality addition to the site sir, keep up the good work.

Seacowboy · Apr 28, 2014

Great looking grow you have. I started an under current DWC system last year that the plants absolutely loved but due to being away for 3 weeks at a time for work the aphids over ran it and I abandoned it a couple months ago. Check it out and I can send you more info on the parts if your interested, can size it to any number of plants and expand down the road.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42344-new-undercurrent-dwc-set-up/

mrgrowguy · Apr 29, 2014

hogleg said:
i bad mouthed gh nutes to you on another thread. i would like to say no matter what nutes your using your grow looks great and very healthy.
i think noobs as well as experts can learn something from side by side comparisons like this.

quality addition to the site sir, keep up the good work.

LOL, all good. And thank you.

I have another system I grow with gh. Don't get me wrong, I have at least tried a few other things. I used Fox Farm tiger bloom with other mixes before. But I feel like the gh goes a little further and it holds a steadier pH over time. Though, it is "chunkier" so using a dropper can quickly turn into poor-and-check real fast.

Here is a pic of the root system. It was under a HPS bulb, those roots are whiter than they seem. Things like this make it worth while for me. This occurred during a water change.

I do use a pinch of gh rapid start with every other feeding. And I can't say for sure whether it is effective or not, but I have generally good and steady growth. Though, I am not yet convinced if it is worth the cost. I just super dilute it so it goes a long way.

Seacowboy said:
Great looking grow you have. I started an under current DWC system last year that the plants absolutely loved but due to being away for 3 weeks at a time for work the aphids over ran it and I abandoned it a couple months ago. Check it out and I can send you more info on the parts if your interested, can size it to any number of plants and expand down the road.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42344-new-undercurrent-dwc-set-up/

So sorry to hear that. And I like your system. I was even thinking about testing out aquaponics in the back yard. Fish and all. And I could make sure of your expertise in building that type of system. But we have our first born [boy!] on the way. So, I'm saving money. Even put tires for the tundra on hold. Might as well get the full use from those stock tires anyways.

Seacowboy · Apr 29, 2014

Too bad your not closer I'd give you a helluva deal on what I have. Wish I could keep up with it but the hydro stuff needs near constant attention that my schedule just doesn't afford. Keep up the great grow and enjoy the quiet before the youngen comes, mine is 9.5 months now but I wouldn't trade it for anythiing.

John1234 · Apr 29, 2014

mrgrowguy said:
I do use a pinch of gh rapid start with every other feeding. And I can't say for sure whether it is effective or not, but I have generally good and steady growth. Though, I am not yet convinced if it is worth the cost. I just super dilute it so it goes a long way.

I dropped the Rapid Start myself, too much gunk in the rez. From what I have read, to get the best results most people double the dosage, but for peppers the price is restrictive.

mrgrowguy · Apr 29, 2014

Seacowboy said:
Too bad your not closer I'd give you a helluva deal on what I have. Wish I could keep up with it but the hydro stuff needs near constant attention that my schedule just doesn't afford. Keep up the great grow and enjoy the quiet before the youngen comes, mine is 9.5 months now but I wouldn't trade it for anythiing.

I totally agree with you. LOL I will do my best!

miguelovic said:
I dropped the Rapid Start myself, too much gunk in the rez. From what I have read, to get the best results most people double the dosage, but for peppers the price is restrictive.

I will likely do the same once this bottle runs out.

solid7 · Apr 29, 2014

There is a huge difference in grow rate between soil and hydro. Unfortunately, there is also a good bit of difference in taste. I like to start plants in a homemade DWC system with a DIY aeroponic fogger, but transplant them when the plants start to get crazy roots. The plants stay bushy, but thick, later in life. Tried some peppers over the winter in hydro, (on my back porch) and they grew well, but tasted horrible. Won't do that again. For me, the taste premium is worth the wait. Just have to plant smarter, I will.

Cayennemist · Apr 29, 2014

solid7 said:
There is a huge difference in grow rate between soil and hydro. Unfortunately, there is also a good bit of difference in taste. I like to start plants in a homemade DWC system with a DIY aeroponic fogger, but transplant them when the plants start to get crazy roots. The plants stay bushy, but thick, later in life. Tried some peppers over the winter in hydro, (on my back porch) and they grew well, but tasted horrible. Won't do that again. For me, the taste premium is worth the wait. Just have to plant smarter, I will.

The brix levels of the fruit are dependent on the diversity of the micro nutrients. This can be helped in hydro with things like kelp. But yes it is easier to achieve higher brix with organic types of grows. Some soils are so rich that plants are named for the area they grow

Vidalia onions
Hatch peppers
Java

Volcanic soils seem to produce the highest brix plants. This is because of the diversity of micro nutrients found in volcanic soils.

Furthermore, synthetic fertilizers can leave a bad taste in plants. In the medical cannabis industry it is standard practice to flush hydro plants 2 weeks before harvest to get rid of the taste associated with synthetic fertilizers.

solid7 · Apr 29, 2014

Cayennemist said:
Hatch peppers

Volcanic soils seem to produce the highest brix plants. This is because of the diversity of micro nutrients found in volcanic soils.

Funny you should mention this... I was just about to start looking for some volcanic rock dust. I also have some really nice Hatch Numex plants and seeds. And if that wasn't ironic enough, I'll give you two guesses why I wanted to find the volcanic rock dust.

mrgrowguy · Apr 29, 2014

Cayennemist said:
The brix levels of the fruit are dependent on the diversity of the micro nutrients. This can be helped in hydro with things like kelp. But yes it is easier to achieve higher brix with organic types of grows. Some soils are so rich that plants are named for the area they grow

Vidalia onions
Hatch peppers
Java

Volcanic soils seem to produce the highest brix plants. This is because of the diversity of micro nutrients found in volcanic soils.

Furthermore, synthetic fertilizers can leave a bad taste in plants. In the medical cannabis industry it is standard practice to flush hydro plants 2 weeks before harvest to get rid of the taste associated with synthetic fertilizers.

Interesting, I do use a seaweed/kelp additive with my "other" DWC grows, I think I will throw a little into the mix on the peppers. Thanks for that!

mrgrowguy · Apr 30, 2014

Cayennemist said:
Volcanic soils seem to produce the highest brix plants. This is because of the diversity of micro nutrients found in volcanic soils.

Do you think that lava rock might have trace minerals, enough to warrant maybe substituting hydroton for? I have not heard of someone using lava rock as filler like hydroton before, but who knows, as long as I can keep algae and mold from growing in the damp parts of the lava rock, it may be worth trying on an "extra" plant.

Cayennemist · Apr 30, 2014

mrgrowguy said:
Do you think that lava rock might have trace minerals, enough to warrant maybe substituting hydroton for? I have not heard of someone using lava rock as filler like hydroton before, but who knows, as long as I can keep algae and mold from growing in the damp parts of the lava rock, it may be worth trying on an "extra" plant.

I have no idea how well it will release minerals? I would imagine not well, but it would hold moisture well I bet. Worth a shot though!