My Hydro Habanero's: DWC with DIY LED's

[Ictus]

So the plant on the left looks like it has responded favorably to the reduced intensity. Only been a few days but it looks like a tiny bit of stem growth:

However, the plant on the right continues to look worse. All the new growth leaves look much worse; several leave have fallen off and I have pruned back a few entire top pieces, and found them swarming in the crawlies.

All the tips look like this:

Keep in mind the above 'growth node' has been stuck like that for over a week; definitely not right!

This shot is the same stem as the shot above, but from the side. Notice how the main stem is nice and green, then at the center of the image, there's an abrupt line and then the stem becomes brown and scarred.

The brown scarring on the stems is worrisome; when I trim a leaf or stem in that area, it appears as if the outer layer of the stem is gooey or dying. Probably from hundreds or thousands of little bug bites


On the plus side, the same plant that's being eaten up is popping flowers like crazy:

(you can even see a crawly right below the flower in that pic, but its blurry)


Funny... I ordered the Neem spray via Prime 2-day shipping. I also ordered some other crap that was non-prime regular shipping. I have already gotten everything EXCEPT the neem spray.. wtf amazon


Would any of you guys consider just trashing the plant on the right and focusing efforts on keeping the left one healthy... or do you think there's a good chance of Victory once I get the Neem spray (probably monday)?

Should I spray with just a home made soap mixture now?

 

[TylerInNiagara]

I think you could save it but read this: http://www.simplyhydro.com/calcium.htm

 

[Ictus]

Thanks for the link.
Wow, sounds exactly like what I've got going on!

True tip burn however, is characterized by developing mostly on the inner, younger leaves, visible as soon as they develop in the centre of the plant. The tissue affected starts off by looking like a water soaked area, which browns, then blackens and rots away in severe cases.

Then later on it says:

Since calcium ions are transported principally in the xylem, any factor which either influences the plant's water loss (and hence xylem flow) or the xylem tissues themselves will affect calcium nutrition. Calcium being a relatively immobile element, follows the transpirational flow of water, so it moves less readily to organs with low rates of transpiration such as fruits and the tips of rapidly expanding leaves, than it does to actively transpiring leaves. This means that calcium deficiency disorders tend to occur in fruits and leaf tips. One of the best ways of making sure calcium gets into all foliage is to encourage a steady rate of evapotranspiration - as the water is lost from the leaf surface, the xylem will bring more water and calcium to the leaf and hopefully right to the leaf tip, thus preventing tip burn from occurring. Keeping humidity levels below 90% helps this process, but more importantly having some gentle air movement across the leaf surface will drive transpiration from the surface, cooling the plant and keeping the flow and deposition of calcium going.

So the bugs biting the young foliage could be inducing the Ca deficiency, which in turn slowly turns the stems to mush.

Clearly my solution does have adequate calcium (lucas alone does, plus I use tap water), and the left plant looks fine, and that one has few bugs on it, whereas the right plant has TONS at this point.


Looks like I spoke too soon... Fedex arrived with my Bon-Neem Also got my Potassium Sulfate in but I'm not exactly sure how to dose it yet (without accurate weights) so will hold off on that.


I have 3 main action items:

1) Reduce Humidity. I already turned on a dehumidifier last night, will see how much it can pull it down.

2) Instead of just 1 80mm fan, I'll hook up one for each plant.

3) Treat with the bon neem every 7 days.

 

[Ictus]

One other interesting bit:

In particular, lowering the EC at night is most beneficial for calcium uptake - calcium uptake and distribution is favored at night when xylem sap pressure can drive water and calcium into the low or non transpiring tissues such as enclosed leaf tips and fruits.

Hmmmmm, wonder if doing the equivalent of a "flush" with tap water could be effective? Maybe after spraying the neem I will put them in another res with very dilute concentrations for the night time?

 

[Ictus]

So I am not almost 100% certain that my bugs are spider mites. Especially after seeing this picture I found online:

Here's a repost of one of my own pics from the last few pages:

Looks white but I think that was the blue LEDs. The critters look distinctly orange to my naked eye.

Here's another picture I haven't posted yet. It's hard to make out, and theres tons of flash reflection, but it looks like there's a big leg mess just below the big white circle.

Other reason is that with all other possible pests, I'd expect to be seeing mature forms of something like aphids or thrips, which hasn't happened. I've had these guys for the whole time so that doesn't add up, must be mites.

 

[Ictus]

Did a neem spray tonight. Plants look fine afterward and I don't see any mites yet. Have them sitting in about 1.15ec. Will do a res change tomorrow back around 1.5.

I don't mind the smell of it actually, and the leaf residue appears minimal, only in little pools here and there.

 

[Ictus]

Check out this nutrient profile I came up with using Calmag, Potassium Sulfate, and Lucas (GH Bloom+Micro):

(weights are in grams, not ml)

GH Micro 5-0-1 10
GH Bloom 0-5-4 7
Potassium Sulfate 0-0-50 2.2
Calmag 2-0-0 7

N (NO3-) 160.035
K 344.122
P 40.35
Mg 49.929
Ca 191.261
S 125.441
Fe 4.491
Zn 0.396
B 0.264
Cu 0.264
Mo 0.021
Na 0
Si 0
Cl 0
Mn 1.321
N (NH4+) 9.035

I think I like it better than what Hydrobuddy comes up with:


GH Micro 5-0-1 13.95
GH Bloom 0-5-4 8.724
Potassium Sulfate 0-0-50 1.965
Calmag 2-0-0 0.148

N (NO3-) 173.958 -8.4%
K 340 0%
P 50.286 25.7%
Mg 35.038 -29.9%
Ca 185.506 9.1%
S 118.551 -67.1%
Fe 3.724 -25.5%
Zn 0.553 67.5%
B 0.369 11.7%
Cu 0.369 637%
Mo 0.029 -41%
Na 0 0%
Si 0 0%
Cl 0 0%
Mn 1.843 235%
N (NH4+) 11.079 -38.5%


My mix comes much closer for P, Mg, Fe, Zn, Mn, and slightly closer for S, B,

It's a bit more deficient in Nitrogen, Boron, and has 12% too much Calcium and 1% too much K.

It's also really close to Resh's tomatoe profile which is cool.

Probably will start the first mix at 2/3 strength tomorrow.

 

[Ictus]

Well it's been a few days, and the plant on the right is a mixed bag at this point.

Some of the brown, gooey stems have turned back to green which I take as a good sign. But many of the leaves look much worse, seeing actual brown scarring and wilting at the base of affected leaves. I'm not seeing any of the spider mites, but then again they can be almost impossible to see.

So either the neem didn't kill all the mites, or I sprayed too much and it's having side effects, or maybe a combination of the two.

The plant on the left looks pretty much the same, but one or two new leaves and a blossom towards the top did turn crispy brown and fall off. So that's not good.


I think I will put one of the no pest strips in the closet for a few days.

 

[TylerInNiagara]

Thanks for the link.
Wow, sounds exactly like what I've got going on!



Then later on it says:




So the bugs biting the young foliage could be inducing the Ca deficiency, which in turn slowly turns the stems to mush.

Clearly my solution does have adequate calcium (lucas alone does, plus I use tap water), and the left plant looks fine, and that one has few bugs on it, whereas the right plant has TONS at this point.


Looks like I spoke too soon... Fedex arrived with my Bon-Neem Also got my Potassium Sulfate in but I'm not exactly sure how to dose it yet (without accurate weights) so will hold off on that.


I have 3 main action items:

1) Reduce Humidity. I already turned on a dehumidifier last night, will see how much it can pull it down.

2) Instead of just 1 80mm fan, I'll hook up one for each plant.

3) Treat with the bon neem every 7 days.

Happy you found my link helpful if you had soil I would tell you to leach it http://www.ehow.com/how_8549188_leach-soil.html but during my research of GH flora series I was told the wrong mix could result in "nutrient lock out" and then to leach the soil I think perhaps you should go to clean water and add plant food wait a week (try it with your crappy plant)

 

[Ictus]

I'll try to get some pics tonight. I think the plants are past the worst of the neem damage. I think I did use a little too much, since any leaves that were curled or cupped that had some neem puddle on the leaves really got burned up where the extra collected.

it's most evident on one leaf on the left plant that was curled totally upside down; it must have acted like a cup since that whole leaf died.


Yea I considered that the nutrient imbalance could cause the lockout. Not ruling that out, but even if that was the original problem, the mites compounded it. So hopefully it gets better soon.

 

[Ictus]

Failed to get pics last night, doh! My wife ended up having to go back to the ER because of a leaky lumbar puncture from a few days ago... yuck, no fun for her!


But I did get in a few boxes to play with I've been ordering a few misting nozzles from various companies to see how they compare. So far I've ordered ReptileBasics, Aeromist and Cloudtops. I got in one of the ReptileBasic misters and played with it a little.

Found a cool way to test them out, albeit blindly. I have a buncha 30cc medical syringes that I got to use with epoxy. Turns out the 1/4" tubing line fits snug onto the end of it, and as long as you kinda hold the line in place, you can get high enough pressure to make mist. neato. Of course I have no idea what pressure I was giving it, but they did make a really nice mist.

When I get my pressure regulator, accumulator and pressure switch I will be able to more accurately compare nozzles. I got a few brands so I could choose the cheapst/best combo since I will need at least 30 of em, probably more. I hope the cloudtops work as well as the pricier ones because they're really cheap.

 

[Ictus]

Ok I just found out that the ReptileBasic misters ARE the tefen cloud tops, in the black, 120degree variety. Good thing I didn't order the black ones from cloudtop also, that would have been redundant Also looks like the pricing is pretty similar regardless of who you buy it from, but the bulk discounts have different pricing.

 

[smokemaster]

My Hydro LED toy.
5mm LEDs will go away soon.10mm will go above.A 7 1/2in. X 12in. pannel.

I'll change to 10mm -125 LEDs about 100-106LM. each,1/2 watt LEDs.

Red in 660nm,625nm ,627nm,630nm ,635nm , 640nm , 645nm ,650nm , 655nm , 658nm ,670nm , 675nm , 680nm.

Blue in 430nm , 435nm , 440nm , 460nm , 465nm , 470nm , 475nm

Assuming the data sheets are right etc.

Hydro plant is 5-6wks from planting the seed.It's a little over 10in. tall X 12in. wide.
7 Pot Sr. Strain from Chris's seeds a couple years ago...

Should be this when I get pods.

 

[Ictus]

Wow that's a pretty neat setup; a true vertical LED grow. Nice growth too. Starting from seed was probably a way better idea than what I did, getting infested with mites etc

I'm sure that's alot of light given how close the LEDs are.

Seems like a good case in support of my plan on trashing my current plants and starting new ones, since I think my 95day old rootbound plants are almost like bonsai pepper plants... bonchi hehehehe

 

[queequeg152]

god, how long did that take to solder?

 

[smokemaster]

It takes about an hour a board.
I work 14 hr shifts babysitting a motorhome sales lot at night.
It took about 1 shift to make most of them.
There are 16 , 3in X 4in boards with around 100-120 LEDs on each.
They could be a lot farther away but I have no room to do so.
I have a 7in X 12in. 10mm LEDs board hanging above with 125 1/2 watt LEDS on it at 100lm each LED.
I find putting LEDs vertically makes my plants branch out very early.
That plant has little leaves and branches under the leaves.

Cancun Habanero before mites killed it in the same garden last year.

Red Savina-mite damaged

Galopagoense-mite damaged

5mm LEDS are very cheep.2500 for about $20.00max.5mm LEDs have a larger wavelength selection than the 10mm or stars.
Metal pannels are 1watt stars from 25lm - 200lm each.
Since I'm using mostly plant specific light I don't need the lumens like from other sources.

I'm making up my grow shelf LEDs now.
3 , 16in x16in pannels above(star LEDs in 420nm - 430nm , 450nm - 475nm and red in 620nm - 670nm)above.
On 3 sides I'll have 10mm LEDs in 415nm - 475nm and 620nm - 680nm.
Shelves are 18in wide x 48in long x 20 in. tall.
With the Lumens they put out I'll only run them 10-12 hrs. max. a day and might split the amount of boards up to make 2 shelves and still have Lumens to spare.

i wish I had more growing room.
The LEDs do better from 18in - 24in away.They are too close now and the beams don't have room to overlap like I want them too.
Different Peppers like different wavelengths of light.
Manzanops for instance like the 620nm-6 30nm range and the sprouts will lean that way even with a higher Lumen 660nm over the actual plant.
Some varieties like blue more than red etc.
Most of my pannels are about a 6-1 red to blue.Only because thas the way the electronics seems to work out using 12 volts.
BUT why fix what isn't broken.
Plants bud etc. once the room gets cool enough.
I make my boards with as many strings of different wavelengths as I can.
Leds sure keep my kitchen cooler.The T12 and T8 fluoros keep my kitchen at 80 degrees year round.Not good for bud set...

I've only been playing with LEDs for a few years.

But ask anyone,they don't work good. LOL
Tech just isn't there....ask the experts...
My homemade stuff isn't even in the same ball park as the commercial ones.
My hydro garden is 30+ yrs old(10in X 21in.Cost $30.00 at K Mart.)
I think next time instead of just vermiculite I'll use Hydroton(? Baked clay...) mixed with the vermiculite.
Carlos cancun Hab. needed to be tied up once it reached 3ft. tall.

Galopagoense is tied to the shelf too.

 

[smokemaster]

Red Savina Before mite attack

I turned the plant every so often.
As you can see,I have to keep the LEDs too close due to wanting to use my stove once in a while...

 

[Jack Kerouac]

Your experiments look great. Keep fighting the good fight against those spider mites!

 

[smokemaster]

Got rid of them with a hot shot no pest strip.
Cleared out all the plants outside that had mites too.
Spraying my plants outside down with water 2X a day seems to have gotten rid of the mites.

Those guys are hard to kill.
I found out weeks after my shelves were cleared that they were crawling into my Fluoros and hibernating or laying eggs.
I think I was giving the mites a hatchery indoors so no matter what I did outside it didn't matter.
Once a sprout from inside went out the mites were spread around again.All it took was a mite with eggs to go out on a plant.

Weeks after I thaught i'd cleaned everything out inside, I started seeing webs hanging from my fluoro lights with mites in them.
Another reason to go LED.
No where to hide mites.
Fluoros were too hot anyway.
Kept my kitchen at 80 dgrees or higher and screwed up my bud set.
The ballasts(10 total in a 11X14ft. room)got too hot.T8 got way hotter than the T12's.
Just replacing a couple dual fluoros with LEDs cooled my room down 5 degrees.

Broke down and put a Hot Shot pest strip out for a couple weeks and they dissapeared.
I started my 7 Pot 5-6 weeks ago.No mites so far have been on my plants.

Not going to buy nursery plants anymore.
I'll stick to seeds.
It took 2 seasons to get rid of the mites.
Lucky I live in a place that has little to no winter.
My plants are budding and setting pods outside and recovering nicely.
Kitchen is finaly cooling down enough for pod set.
Might salvage the season yet.

 

[Ictus]

Well it's been about a week and a half since the 1st neem treatment. Very mixed results so far.

The plant on the right - which previously had by far the worse mite problem - lost most of the young and mature leaves at the top of the plant withint 1-2 days of the neem treatment. The plant on the left developed a light chlorosis on the upper leaves, and unfortunately this plant is now heavily mite infested. All pics w/ flash.

You can see lots of burned edges on the lower leaves - this was the overnight result of using too much neem. Lots of leaves died from it, but the ones that remain seem ok now. Also finally seeing new growth at all the stem points on the right plant:

The plant on the left has grown considerably larger width wise, but not much vertical growth. Sadly it looks like the younger top leaves are where the mites concentrate

To spot the mites all I have to do is zoom in on any young leaf that has the peeled-back edge look, and a 'gooey' texture. There are mites on every leaf that has this appearance.

I was planning on going nuclear with some no-pest strips, but for complicated reasons that isn't an option right now, at least until I move into my new house at the end of the month.


I did another - much lighter - neem spray last night. So far I don't see any of the same side effects as last time, so I think I really over did it last time. Hopefully I can beat these guys back but so far things are not looking very promising for these plants. I think all discussion of nutrients and lighting is pretty much moot until the mites are solved.