breeding New cross: how many plants do you keep in each generation?

[Marruk]

I want to try my hand at crossing a couple of varieties this year.  I think I get the basic idea: \emasculate the flower, manually pollinate, and grow out; select plants that have characteristics that I want, and continue growing out the most desirable plants each generation until (if I'm lucky) I can get some to stabilize after 8 or so generations.
 
My grow space is (relatively!) limited; I'm up to 50 plants this year, which is probably close to my limit unless my circumstances change significantly.
 
How many plants do you usually have in each generation when developing a cross?  Is 10 plants a big enough pool to choose the best plant to grow out?  Is 5? 
 
I was hoping to try 2 or 3 crosses at a time, while maintaining a decent amount of stable plants each year.

 

[SpeakPolish]

10 is big enough, but if you want more rare traits then you might want more.

 

[thegreenman]

F1 generation, just a couple, F2 at least 6, cause most of them will be different. Of my F2 Jabootys I've gotten 3 red, 1 brown and 1 peach so far, i have two more waiting for fruit. They also have different shapes, some are more bird pepper like and some are more bhut like. I'm only saving seeds from the brown and peach, as none of the reds impress me so far. In F3 generation I'll likely only grow out 4 or so of each selection. Subsequently I'll only grow 2 or 3 of each.l generation.

 

[Walchit]

I have about 50 of this jalapeno cross going. Hoping to get something close to the f1

 

[Datil]

Here you can find some rough guidelines:
 
https://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/PepperSeedProductionVer1_2.pdf
 
I'd say it really depends by your quality goals.
 

F1 generation, just a couple

 
Some addictional food for thought:
 
http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php
 
"Even if you go through the cycle of selecting generations of pods, you are still breeding plants that descend from just two original plants. Without a more diverse pool of genes to pull from, your plants are much more likely to fall victim to some inherited disease.Much better would be to start with a hundred plants, fifty of each variety. Then cross all the F1 flowers with each other, and so on. Much more work, but better quality plants."
 
Good luck
 
Datil

 

[thegreenman]

Here you can find some rough guidelines:
 
https://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/PepperSeedProductionVer1_2.pdf
 
I'd say it really depends by your quality goals.
 
 
Some addictional food for thought:
 
http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php
 
"Even if you go through the cycle of selecting generations of pods, you are still breeding plants that descend from just two original plants. Without a more diverse pool of genes to pull from, your plants are much more likely to fall victim to some inherited disease.Much better would be to start with a hundred plants, fifty of each variety. Then cross all the F1 flowers with each other, and so on. Much more work, but better quality plants."
 
Good luck
 
Datil

If only I had the space...and this was a business and not a hobby.

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

F1 generation, just a couple, F2 at least 6, cause most of them will be different. Of my F2 Jabootys I've gotten 3 red, 1 brown and 1 peach so far, i have two more waiting for fruit. They also have different shapes, some are more bird pepper like and some are more bhut like. I'm only saving seeds from the brown and peach, as none of the reds impress me so far. In F3 generation I'll likely only grow out 4 or so of each selection. Subsequently I'll only grow 2 or 3 of each.l generation.

 
Something does't add up Chris (Note: Pun intended!.... ... ). Unsure what your cross started out with but let's assume Bird's Eye (C. annuum - red) X with Brown Bhutlah (C. chinense - brown), peach is not in the gene pool unless it was a recessive trait from a earlier cross or the flowers were not isolated and now have another gene added in from the F1 grow. A little clarification please. 
 
 
As always, YMMV!

 

[DontPanic]

I have a different climate, but my situation is similar.  I can grow 40-50 chili plants, and even then I'm crowding them in with less than optimal spacing.
 
5 years ago, I would have thought 50 pepper plants would be more than enough for a hobby garden.  Now I'm wringing my hands figuring out how I can get by with only 40-50 pepper plants. 

 

[thegreenman]

 
Something does't add up Chris (Note: Pun intended!.... ... ). Unsure what your cross started out with but let's assume Bird's Eye (C. annuum - red) X with Brown Bhutlah (C. chinense - brown), peach is not in the gene pool unless it was a recessive trait from a earlier cross or the flowers were not isolated and now have another gene added in from the F1 grow. A little clarification please. 
 
 
As always, YMMV!

Well since the bird peppers were basically wild, there's no telling what is hiding in their gene pool. Also the Brown Bhut was from Pepperlover, so again, no telling what was actually in it.

 

[Bicycle808]

My time spent hanging out here and on FB groups, reading threads like thos one, has led me to believe that many folks who are deliberately crossing plants are being pretty casual about it. And the rest of us, we might be inclined to save seeds from open-pollinated plants too so... A peach popping up from almost any domesticated stock wouldn't surprise me at all.

As for the OP, i suspect you'll have more consistent results if you concentrate on growing out one cross at a time, rather than trying 3 at once, given your space limitations. If you want to do this thing righteously, a larger pool will offer you more options for selection, more genetic diversity for your cross's sustainability, and more chances for success. I get the sense that most hobbyist horticulturalists are crossing for cool-looking pods and/or cutesy possibilities for names. Some wiser souls are looking for particular flavor characteristics, or to get novel color/shape combinations. If ever i tried my hand at this type of thing, i'd be selecting for hardiness, production, and the tendency to grow a nice, strong rootball.

 

[Walchit]

"If ever i tried my hand at this type of thing, is be selection for hardiness, production, and the tendency to grow a nice, strong rootball."

+1 big time

And maybe for larger pods, but that goes with production. I wouldnt pick a plant with one giant pod over one with 1000 regular sized pods

 

[Bicycle808]

"If ever i tried my hand at this type of thing, is be selection for hardiness, production, and the tendency to grow a nice, strong rootball."

+1 big time

And maybe for larger pods, but that goes with production. I wouldnt pick a plant with one giant pod over one with 1000 regular sized pods

Larger pods are awesome. Definitely a worthy attribute to select for. I grew those Freeport Orange Boners last year, and they were definitely tasty and looked nice, but what really set then apart and earned then a spot in my 2019 grow was the huge-ass pods. If i ever tried to set a strain, i suspect I'd shoot for the hardiness, production, and awesome roots first and if i ever got those attributes consistent, is only select seeds from the biggest, most delicious pods to try to set those traits too.

My interest in crosses is pretty low, but i do believe i want to select the improve on some old favorites, like yellow Bonnets and such....

 

[thegreenman]

My time spent hanging out here and on FB groups, reading threads like thos one, has led me to believe that many folks who are deliberately crossing plants are being pretty casual about it. And the rest of us, we might be inclined to save seeds from open-pollinated plants too so... A peach popping up from almost any domesticated stock wouldn't surprise me at all.

As for the OP, i suspect you'll have more consistent results if you concentrate on growing out one cross at a time, rather than trying 3 at once, given your space limitations. If you want to do this thing righteously, a larger pool will offer you more options for selection, more genetic diversity for your cross's sustainability, and more chances for success. I get the sense that most hobbyist horticulturalists are crossing for cool-looking pods and/or cutesy possibilities for names. Some wiser souls are looking for particular flavor characteristics, or to get novel color/shape combinations. If ever i tried my hand at this type of thing, i'd be selecting for hardiness, production, and the tendency to grow a nice, strong rootball.

Just a consideration that every named variety of orange, lemon, grapefruit, apple, pear, avocado, mango, lychee, etc...started with a single exceptional plant and was asexually reproduced from that single individual. That can be done with peppers too.

 

[SpeakPolish]

Just a consideration that every named variety of orange, lemon, grapefruit, apple, pear, avocado, mango, lychee, etc...started with a single exceptional plant and was asexually reproduced from that single individual. That can be done with peppers too.

Peppers can be asexually reproduced but it would be highly inefficient considering their relatively short lifetime.

 

[Ruid]

Larger pods are awesome. Definitely a worthy attribute to select for. I grew those Freeport Orange Boners last year, and they were definitely tasty and looked nice, but what really set then apart and earned then a spot in my 2019 grow was the huge-ass pods. If i ever tried to set a strain, i suspect I'd shoot for the hardiness, production, and awesome roots first and if i ever got those attributes consistent, is only select seeds from the biggest, most delicious pods to try to set those traits too.

My interest in crosses is pretty low, but i do believe i want to select the improve on some old favorites, like yellow Bonnets and such....

Lol Freeport Orange Boners

 

[thegreenman]

Peppers can be asexually reproduced but it would be highly inefficient considering their relatively short lifetime.

That depends on your climate, in the tropics and subtropics (or in a greenhouse) you could keep a selection alive indefinitely through continued propagation.

If you've ever bought F1 hybrid plants at retail, it is likely they've been reproduced through tissue culture from a single individual cross selection.

Tissue culture and Capsicum.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22610631/
Chili pepper (Capsicum spp.) is a very important horticultural crop around the world and is especially important for Mexicans because of its impact in the culture and the cuisine. Biotechnological tools such as tissue culture techniques and specifically anther culture may be applied successfully for plant breeding and genetic improvement in order to generate isogenic lines (100% homozygous) in a shorter time in comparison with the classic breeding methods. In this chapter, a protocol for efficient recovery of chili pepper haploid plants from in vitro cultured anthers is described.



https://patents.google.com/patent/US20100227041A1/en

Syngenta patented seedless pepper plant.

 

[internationalfish]

I get the sense that most hobbyist horticulturalists are crossing for cool-looking pods and/or cutesy possibilities for names.

 
Seems like kind of an unkind assumption, but then you definitely have more experience in these communities than I do.
 
There's a lot of interesting input in this thread! Thanks for starting it, Marruk. Pretty sure I don't have nearly the space you do, and it's been informative seeing everyone's input on this. I probably ought to scale back my ambitions as well; there are at least three crosses I'd like to try, but I'll probably pick my top two and see if I can get those going without overloading my poor tent (and perhaps tent #2 if I end up getting my act together).

 

[Marruk]

 
Seems like kind of an unkind assumption, but then you definitely have more experience in these communities than I do.
 

That was my first reaction, as well. But then I thought about the cross of a fish pepper and a purple jalapeno I was planning on trying, in hopes of getting a purple variegated pepper I could call a "fishapeno", and decided that I didn't have room to be offended

 

[internationalfish]

That was my first reaction, as well. But then I thought about the cross of a fish pepper and a purple jalapeno I was planning on trying, in hopes of getting a purple variegated pepper I could call a "fishapeno", and decided that I didn't have room to be offended

 
What?! I SUPPORT YOUR FISHY VENTURE! 

 

 

[Marruk]

 
What?! I SUPPORT YOUR FISHY VENTURE! 

 

The fact that I fit a stereotype of new hobbyists will not stop me

But space considerations in light of the information shared in this thread may force me to pick between a possible fishapeno and experimenting with vezena piperka crossed with... well, I'm not sure what yet. I was thinking about trying to cross it with a super hot chinense.