Nitrogen addiction?

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Read something trashing Miracle Grow, but think it might be the same for most ammonium based nutrients.  Seems they work great on the plant, providing the nutrients the plant needs.  However, they tend to acidify the soil enough to damage the natural cycle of turning organic materiel into plant foods.  The result being that the soil becomes unable to provide the nitrogen the plants need.  So your soil becomes addicted to added nitrogen.

Thoughts?  Is this just another attack on Miracle Grow or could there be something to the acidification / addiction?
 
I've heard (and believe) that overusing Miracle Grow can cause a lot of Phosphorus run-off (which is bad for obvious reasons), but I'd probably need to see some peer-reviewed research before I'd buy into this claim. It might stimulate other microbe growth that depletes different nutrients?
 
 
You know I have also heard similar claims from multiple sources, but at the same time I've never heard of any real evidence to back up these claims.
 
It wouldn't be too hard to verify if these claims are correct or not, getting some ph strips to test soil treated with in-organic nutrients vs similar organically treated should be a pretty easy thing to do. And it might take a few weeks/months to get any real results but one could add inorganic fertilizers to a compost pile and if the pile refuses to break down then the theory might hold some merit.
 
...Although I suspect the additional nitrogen would actually speed up the decomposition process rather than slow it down.
 
AJ Drew said:
Read something trashing Miracle Grow, but think it might be the same for most ammonium based nutrients.  Seems they work great on the plant, providing the nutrients the plant needs.  However, they tend to acidify the soil enough to damage the natural cycle of turning organic materiel into plant foods.  The result being that the soil becomes unable to provide the nitrogen the plants need.  So your soil becomes addicted to added nitrogen.

Thoughts?  Is this just another attack on Miracle Grow or could there be something to the acidification / addiction?
Click to expand...
 
It's true, but not a bad thing
Pepper plants prefer ammonium based nitrogen to nitrate based nitrogen
 
This is because they form symbiosis with fungi rather than bacteria which prefer an acidic soil
Ammonium won't acidify the soil to the point of causing damage unless you're being wreckless
 
I agree with that, most soluble fertilisers are incredibly bad for the soil
After giving plants "chemical" fertilisers, the plant becomes dependant on it
 
Powelly said:
I agree with that, most soluble fertilisers are incredibly bad for the soil
After giving plants "chemical" fertilisers, the plant becomes dependant on it
Click to expand...
From the article, I think the soil itself becomes dependent.  I dont even have the equipement to do such a thing ( tractor n sprayer ) but the thought has crossed my mind to experiment with chemical fertalizer so I could produce more and enter more into wholesale.  But reading the article, I think I am much better off doing direct to consumer / smaller grows and stay organic.  Still want to expand in that area, but not so much into the size that sells mostly to hot sauce companies.

Still, was approached by a distillery and I would frigging love to have that bragging right.  Imagine sitting around with friends and sharing whiskey made withe something you grew.  Just plain fun.
 
Ammonia is the opposite to acidic. Its an alkaline. It has a PH of 11 + 
 
However, anything with "sulfate" in it has some amount of acidity due to the sulphur content. 
for example sulphate of ammonia 
 
nzchili said:
Ammonia is the opposite to acidic. Its an alkaline. It has a PH of 11 + 
 
However, anything with "sulfate" in it has some amount of acidity due to the sulphur content. 
for example sulphate of ammonia 
Click to expand...
 
Ammonium is acid though
 
Imho it was meant like this:
 
Organic materials decay (very simplified)
stuff containing aminoacids -----(bacteria)------> amonnium ------(bacterias)------> nitrates
 
plants as far as I know use mainly nitrate form. If you supply it directly, plants don't need so much symbiotical bacteria to get that nitrate nitrogen so the decay can slow down. Adding huge amounts of nitrogen for long time might slow down the decay significantly and therefore, it might really get "addicted" to the supply and stopping it would take time for the bacteria to start working properly again.
 
This is only theoretical, I have only few experiences in real garden so take this easy.
 
Powelly said:
 
Ammonium is acid though
Click to expand...
 
 
hmm im no chemistry wiz, but, how so?
 
Ammonia has a PH of 11+ 
 
PH of 7 + = alkaline
and PH 7 or under = acidic. 
 
What am I missing?
 
Unless im wrong somehow (may well be) then its an extremely alkaline substance.
Alkaline substances can act like an "acid" though  (corrosive)  as its at one extreme of the PH scale. Just technically not at the acidic end of the scale. 
 
what im saying is you could have an alkaline "acid". In this case the term acid being used only to describe a substance that eats or reacts with something else. A corrosive substance if you will. But this "acid" (i.e "corrosive") is technically an alkaline. I think. 
 
so its an alkaline based corrosive.
 
 
 
Ammonium is is the NH4+ cation.
Ammonia is ammonium hydroxide where alkaline is the anion part of compound. If you react pure ammonia with water, you get this ammonium hydroxide or if you want, "aquaeous ammonia" . NH3 + H2O ----> NH4OH
 
If you neutralize the hydroxide, NH4 + by itself is little bit acidic because it is the protonated form of NH3.
 
(in simple definition, acid and base is the relation between two compounds, one is usually water where the one giving H+ is acid and the one accepting it is base.
 
Neme said:
Ammonium is is the NH4+ cation.
Ammonia is ammonium hydroxide where alkaline is the anion part of compound. If you react pure ammonia with water, you get this ammonium hydroxide or if you want, "aquaeous ammonia" . NH3 + H2O ----> NH4OH
 
If you neutralize the hydroxide, NH4 + by itself is little bit acidic because it is the protonated form of NH3.
 
(in simple definition, acid and base is the relation between two compounds, one is usually water where the one giving H+ is acid and the one accepting it is base.
Click to expand...
 
I don't even know what that means lol. Way above me.
So to put it simply, is it an acid or an alkaline?
 
nzchili said:
 
I don't even know what that means lol. Way above me.
So to put it simply, is it an acid or an alkaline?
Click to expand...
 
Basically (ho ho ho) ammonium is NH4+ which is different to ammonia, it just shares a common name
It's acidic
 
Pepper plant actually prefers ammonium as a nitrogen source to nitrates
 
Short & Simple:
 
Ammonium + Water = Acidic Solution
 
Ammonia + Water = Alkali Solution
 
 
Not So Short but still fairly simple:
Chemical Equation for first is:
NH4+ + H2O = H3O+ + NH3 
The Hydronium Ion (H3O+) is the ion that renders solutions acidic.
(The concentration of H3O+ gives the pH, using formula pH = -log(H3O+), so more H3O+ means less pH)
So Ammonium is Acidic.
 
Chemical Equation for second is:
NH3 + H2O = OH- + NH4+
The Hydroxide ion (OH-) is the alkali ion, so Ammonia is Alkali (Basic)
 
BTW Water can act as acid or base, its pretty magical in that way. (Technical term is Amphiprotic)
 
 
So... Because Ammonium produced acid, it is acid. Because Ammonia produces alkali, it is alkali.
That's the long and short of it.
 
 
The joys of doing HSC Chemistry ;) :party:
 
-TBG
 
 
 
 
 
 
nzchili said:
 
 
However, anything with "sulfate" in it has some amount of acidity due to the sulphur content. 
for example sulphate of ammonia 
Click to expand...
 
That's a common misconception.  Only elemental sulfur will raise soil ph to any meaningful degree.  While I'm sure some products with sulfates in them will lower ph, it's not because of the sulfates.
 
Once you add elemental sulfur to the soil, it goes through some chemical reactions to turn it into sulfuric acid - which can be some nasty stuff in high concentrations.  After that, some more chemical reactions occur which turn sulfuric acid into sulfates.  It's the sulfuric acid, and the chemical reactions around it, which lower soil ph, not the sulfates.
 
Beyond that, you will need a chemist to example this stuff as I am no expert.
 
S->H2SO4->SO4
 
nzchili said:
Ammonia is the opposite to acidic. Its an alkaline. It has a PH of 11 + 
 
However, anything with "sulfate" in it has some amount of acidity due to the sulphur content. 
for example sulphate of ammonia 
Click to expand...
Neme said:
Organic materials decay (very simplified)
stuff containing aminoacids -----(bacteria)------> amonnium ------(bacterias)------> nitrates
 
plants as far as I know use mainly nitrate form. If you supply it directly, plants don't need so much symbiotical bacteria to get that nitrate nitrogen so the decay can slow down. Adding huge amounts of nitrogen for long time might slow down the decay significantly and therefore, it might really get "addicted" to the supply and stopping it would take time for the bacteria to start working properly again.
Click to expand...
nzchili said:
Ammonia has a PH of 11+ 
 
PH of 7 + = alkaline
and PH 7 or under = acidic. 
 
What am I missing?
 
Unless im wrong somehow (may well be) then its an extremely alkaline substance.
Alkaline substances can act like an "acid" though  (corrosive)  as its at one extreme of the PH scale. Just technically not at the acidic end of the scale. 
 
what im saying is you could have an alkaline "acid". In this case the term acid being used only to describe a substance that eats or reacts with something else. A corrosive substance if you will. But this "acid" (i.e "corrosive") is technically an alkaline. I think. 
 
so its an alkaline based corrosive.
Click to expand...
Neme said:
Ammonium is is the NH4+ cation.
Ammonia is ammonium hydroxide where alkaline is the anion part of compound. If you react pure ammonia with water, you get this ammonium hydroxide or if you want, "aquaeous ammonia" . NH3 + H2O ----> NH4OH
 
If you neutralize the hydroxide, NH4 + by itself is little bit acidic because it is the protonated form of NH3.
 
(in simple definition, acid and base is the relation between two compounds, one is usually water where the one giving H+ is acid and the one accepting it is base.
Click to expand...
Neme said:
Simplest I can:
Ammonia = alkaline
Ammonium = acidic
Click to expand...
ThatBlondGuy101 said:
Ammonium + Water = Acidic Solution
 
Ammonia + Water = Alkali Solution
 
 
Not So Short but still fairly simple:
Chemical Equation for first is:
NH4+ + H2O = H3O+ + NH3 
The Hydronium Ion (H3O+) is the ion that renders solutions acidic.
(The concentration of H3O+ gives the pH, using formula pH = -log(H3O+), so more H3O+ means less pH)
So Ammonium is Acidic.
 
Chemical Equation for second is:
NH3 + H2O = OH- + NH4+
The Hydroxide ion (OH-) is the alkali ion, so Ammonia is Alkali (Basic)
 
BTW Water can act as acid or base, its pretty magical in that way. (Technical term is Amphiprotic)
 
 
So... Because Ammonium produced acid, it is acid. Because Ammonia produces alkali, it is alkali.
That's the long and short of it.
 
The joys of doing HSC Chemistry ;) :party:
Click to expand...
LTCM said:
S->H2SO4->SO4
Click to expand...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8
 
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