ok i'm board at work today, and since its my last day before a week vacation i'm slacking.....so i was thinking about hot peppers (sad i know) and i got to thinking about their effects on us when we eat them. Now i would think that in nature this would be a very unpleasant efftect and these types of things are usually evolved to protect the seeds from something/some animal. Since most/all plants have developed some way of dispursing how are the seeds spread unless there are specific animals where the wild chilis grow that are not effected by the cap? It would seem to me that there would have to be otherwise the seeds would not get distributed and the seeds would simply fall from the plant, and now the mother plants is fighting with the seedlings to survive.And what animals did the chilies develop the cap to protect the seeds from? Or is there a totally different reason the cap was evolved? Anyone have any info/theories?
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origin of the species
- Thread starter Geosojda
- Start date
I have a theory that reminded me of a Zen story or parable I read once...
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves."
"You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?"
Basically, my theory is that even though capsacin gives humans an uncomfortable feeling when eaten, maybe other animals aren't affected by it in the same way. Maybe their taste buds are slightly different in a way that they think it tastes fruity.
Also, a bird can pick up an entire unopened pod and fly it away to its nest 5 miles from the mother plant. Then when it arrives at the nest it cracks it open and is appalled by the flavor so it drops it to the forest floor where it can grow without competing with the mother plant.
One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river. "Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves."
"You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?"
Basically, my theory is that even though capsacin gives humans an uncomfortable feeling when eaten, maybe other animals aren't affected by it in the same way. Maybe their taste buds are slightly different in a way that they think it tastes fruity.
Also, a bird can pick up an entire unopened pod and fly it away to its nest 5 miles from the mother plant. Then when it arrives at the nest it cracks it open and is appalled by the flavor so it drops it to the forest floor where it can grow without competing with the mother plant.
Here's your culprits:
It is my understanding that birds are unaffected by capsaicin, and that they were the primary means of seed dispersal over large areas before humans got into the mix with domesticated agriculture.
Birds are usually unaffected by capsaicin
"The situation is entirely different for birds. While mammals will avoid food containing as little as 100-1000 parts per million (ppm) of capsaicin, birds will readily consume up to at least 20,000 ppm (mind, we're talking food that's 2% pure capsaicin here). The difference seems to be that bird receptor cells are largely insensitive to capsaicin. Certain chemical modifications can make capsaicin somewhat aversive to birds, which shows that it is the structure of the molecule that is the key. Capsaicin sensitivity is perhaps the most well known difference between bird and mammalian receptors, although birds also seem to be insensitive to many other substances that are irritating to mammals, including ammonia and naphthalene. (A contrasting case is methyl anthranilate, grape flavoring, which is aversive to birds but not to mammals.) This difference is exploited by some commercial bird seeds, which add chili powder or capsaicin to the mixture to deter feeder-raiding squirrels. "
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1857/are-birds-immune-to-hot-pepper-enabling-them-to-eat-vast-amounts-and-spread-the-seeds
"The situation is entirely different for birds. While mammals will avoid food containing as little as 100-1000 parts per million (ppm) of capsaicin, birds will readily consume up to at least 20,000 ppm (mind, we're talking food that's 2% pure capsaicin here). The difference seems to be that bird receptor cells are largely insensitive to capsaicin. Certain chemical modifications can make capsaicin somewhat aversive to birds, which shows that it is the structure of the molecule that is the key. Capsaicin sensitivity is perhaps the most well known difference between bird and mammalian receptors, although birds also seem to be insensitive to many other substances that are irritating to mammals, including ammonia and naphthalene. (A contrasting case is methyl anthranilate, grape flavoring, which is aversive to birds but not to mammals.) This difference is exploited by some commercial bird seeds, which add chili powder or capsaicin to the mixture to deter feeder-raiding squirrels. "
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1857/are-birds-immune-to-hot-pepper-enabling-them-to-eat-vast-amounts-and-spread-the-seeds
The Alfred Hitchcocks roamed wild in SA in anno dazumal.
ok so that answers the dispersment question, but i still wonder why develop it in the first place, what was eating the chili and not dispersing the seeds that would give the need for the cap protection?
Mammals don't make very good seed dispersal vehicles for chilli seeds.
Only guessing here, but an animal like a rodent or deer would probably chew and destroy the seeds or at least many of the seeds. There might also be some differences in how they digest the food, a seed might not survive the travel through a mammals digestive tract?
plus birds sought the colourful pods of the chillies for the colorants for their feathers (I forget which chemical it is that helps in this)
Chili seed passes through a bird's digestive system intact; besides, why send your seeds out in the world via ground transportation when you can send them airmail.
unless that mammal is homo sapiens.
a good source of info on these sorts of inquiries is Michael Pollan's "The Botany of Desire". Pretty great book. His basic theory is that domestication is not a one-dimensional process which we carry out upon certain species, but instead a most desirable form of adaptation that almost guarantees the survival and propagation of a plant or animal (count how many dogs there are in america vs. how many coyotes we've got). basically the idea is that you should not think of humans as being separate from nature and evolution, but rather as part of it (engaged in a symbiosis of sorts with domesticated plants and animals).
Birds are ammune to the capsacinoides found in peppers they ususly eat a pepper whole the seeds will still be in side of the fruit going into their digestive system only the vains and skin will digest leaving tons of seeds i am thinking of trying to see if one of my chickens will eat one
Birds are ammune to the capsacinoides found in peppers they ususly eat a pepper whole the seeds will still be in side of the fruit going into their digestive system only the vains and skin will digest leaving tons of seeds i am thinking of trying to see if one of my chickens will eat one
I've thrown several different types of peppers to my chooks; so far they aren't interested. I'd turn them loose in my garden to eat bugs if they didn't like maters or scratching so much.
I have to assume different birds must eat different parts of a plant or seed/grain. I've never had a Hook Bill bird like a Parrot , much less a big one. I've only raised Canaries. They eat mainly grains/seed but they will also eat carrots , greens , and fruits.......
I've never given a Canary a pepper to see what they'd do. My guess is just eat the flesh. I don't think a pepper seed would have much nutritional value so need to crack and eat it. And if the seed was cracked it wouldn't make another plant. Kind of wonder which birds like peppers more ? I know Parrots like them.
With Canaries some people "Color Feed " them. When they start to molt you starting giving them large doses of carotene (SP ? ) added to their food. Like carrots... that will make yellow birds orange after the molt. I know people use Paprika as a base to turn yellow canaries red.
So God bless all those birds with a lot of red in their feathers. Especially those that ate a lot of peppers and migrated a long distance and poop along the way.
Peace,
P. Dreadie
I've never given a Canary a pepper to see what they'd do. My guess is just eat the flesh. I don't think a pepper seed would have much nutritional value so need to crack and eat it. And if the seed was cracked it wouldn't make another plant. Kind of wonder which birds like peppers more ? I know Parrots like them.
With Canaries some people "Color Feed " them. When they start to molt you starting giving them large doses of carotene (SP ? ) added to their food. Like carrots... that will make yellow birds orange after the molt. I know people use Paprika as a base to turn yellow canaries red.
So God bless all those birds with a lot of red in their feathers. Especially those that ate a lot of peppers and migrated a long distance and poop along the way.
Peace,
P. Dreadie