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Pollination bags and question about sex

P

PepperDoc

Ive got a really nice BTR scorpion plant Id like to stabilize. Wondering what you all use for pollination bags and where you like to buy them?

Ive also got a few other varieties Im interested in crossing, but not sure who should be the dad and who should be mom. I understand how male/female relates to seed viability when crossing two different species, but I dont understand how it relates to characteristics of the next generation. For example, baccatum and chinense will give viable F1 no matter which one is mom or dad, but If the dad is chinense, can I expect the F1 to be somehow different in growth or taste than if the mom is chinense?
 
For isolation, these bags are a good bet - https://www.amazon.com/Reusable-Produce-Bags-Drawstring-Turtle-Friendly/dp/B01BFMD6SO (credit to NECM).  If you want more/cheaper/smaller bags, search for "organza bags" but they are generally harder to work with to get good results.  I often isolate just by moving plants around to the front of my house where there's significant obstruction for pollinating insects traveling from back to front.
 
Interspecific hybridization isn't that simple.  Baccatum x chinense won't always give a viable F1 and which donor is mom versus dad is most important in this aspect of interspecific hybridization, i.e., getting viable hybrids.  Some genes are passed based on gender, so you might get the allele from a mother in the cross that you wouldn't get from the father, thus the genome would be different based on the cross direction. It's highly unlikely to be able to understand how to control this to pass desired traits however, so the best options are to either run it one way and hope for good results or run it both ways and increase your odds at the best results. I suspect in most cases it won't affect the trait you're after, but perhaps in some it will.
 
Good luck with the BTR Scorp and what, no pics of it?  :)
 
Here I'm using a 5 gallon strainer, it covers most of the plant.
20190720_175338.jpg
 
Thank you all for this helpful information.
 
Regarding the sex of parent plants, I had no idea it was this complex. (Famous last words). Looks like I will be trying out some crosses both ways.
 
Thanks again!
 
CaneDog said:
Interspecific hybridization isn't that simple.  Baccatum x chinense won't always give a viable F1 and which donor is mom versus dad is most important in this aspect of interspecific hybridization, i.e., getting viable hybrids.  Some genes are passed based on gender, so you might get the allele from a mother in the cross that you wouldn't get from the father, thus the genome would be different based on the cross direction. It's highly unlikely to be able to understand how to control this to pass desired traits however, so the best options are to either run it one way and hope for good results or run it both ways and increase your odds at the best results. I suspect in most cases it won't affect the trait you're after, but perhaps in some it will.
 
Good luck with the BTR Scorp and what, no pics of it?  :)
Click to expand...


stringer said:
Thank you all for this helpful information.
 
Regarding the sex of parent plants, I had no idea it was this complex. (Famous last words). Looks like I will be trying out some crosses both ways.
 
Thanks again!
Click to expand...
@ CaneDog, we need to talk....... see chart below......

@ Stringer, if I help make CaneDogs post easier to understand, can we use this tread to chit-chat a bit?
 
OK then, let's try this chart:
 
GPnwPEs.jpg

 
So CaneDog, I've read many of your posts about peppers commingling and hope you can use the above chart to help us understand this? 
 
 
Hey NECM.  Sure thing.  I'm running out, so I'll drop a comment and a resource and get back later. 
 
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think that table comes from a 1985 or 1981 resource.  I've never read a study supporting it.  To conclude it will or it won't, as though 100% count on it or don't, just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Here's a 2014 article from Brazilian Society of Plant Breeding on Crossability and Evaluation of Incompatibility Barriers in Crosses between Capsicum Species. There are more in-depth studies out there on the various whys and wherefores, but this one is good for quickly summarizing the success percentages from the researchers' attempts at interspecific crosses of multiple pairings in different directions.  The table on page 2 summarizes the number of attempts and the number of adult plants (NAP) achieved by varieties and directions.
 
I think it's a great starting place and likely provides enough information for a breeder to get a general idea of the odds they face and the preferred direction to attempt with interspecific breeding.
 
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2d12/bd18951f3999f7b2c708e2604c3d732b2fe3.pdf
 
 
The_NorthEast_ChileMan said:
 
@ CaneDog, we need to talk....... see chart below......

@ Stringer, if I help make CaneDogs post easier to understand, can we use this tread to chit-chat a bit?
 
OK then, let's try this chart:
 
GPnwPEs.jpg

 
So CaneDog, I've read many of your posts about peppers commingling and hope you can use the above chart to help us understand this? 
 
 
Click to expand...
 
I'm glad you brought this up. This was the chart from which I was basing my assumptions about interspecies crosses.  
 
CaneDog said:
Hey NECM.  Sure thing.  I'm running out, so I'll drop a comment and a resource and get back later. 
 
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think that table comes from a 1985 or 1981 resource.  I've never read a study supporting it.  To conclude it will or it won't, as though 100% count on it or don't, just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Here's a 2014 article from Brazilian Society of Plant Breeding on Crossability and Evaluation of Incompatibility Barriers in Crosses between Capsicum Species. There are more in-depth studies out there on the various whys and wherefores, but this one is good for quickly summarizing the success percentages from the researchers' attempts at interspecific crosses of multiple pairings in different directions.  The table on page 2 summarizes the number of attempts and the number of adult plants (NAP) achieved by varieties and directions.
 
I think it's a great starting place and likely provides enough information for a breeder to get a general idea of the odds they face and the preferred direction to attempt with interspecific breeding.
 
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2d12/bd18951f3999f7b2c708e2604c3d732b2fe3.pdf
 
Click to expand...
 
 
Thank you!! This paper looks like it will be a much more comprehensive investigation of the issue compared to the interwebs' ubiquitous table. Thank you for sharing this!
 
DownRiver said:
Stringer, I don't know if you're experienced in this kinda thing, so here's a how-to on crossing. I don't know how accurate it is but I like looking at the pictures!
 
https://www.fatalii.net/Growing_chile_peppers/Breeding
 
Good luck with it!
Click to expand...
 

This is great. It is much like the instuctional vids I've seen on youtube, but this has some great pics and explanation. Thank you!
 
What does that NG actually mean? So seeds germinate and Make F1 gen plant, does that plant set fruit and viable seeds? Hoping to cross aji fantasy(baccatums) and Harold st Bart(Chinese)
Fantasy being The mother
 
The_NorthEast_ChileMan said:
That chart is from early-mid 80's and very dated. Read through the link CaneDog posted in Post#9 and see if that helps.
Click to expand...
I dont think that I understand IT correctly, seems like almost no crosses work? Can someone give simple answer, can I cross baccatums and Chinese? I already pollinated ja got fruit to Set.
 
Inoks said:
I dont think that I understand IT correctly, seems like almost no crosses work? Can someone give simple answer, can I cross baccatums and Chinese? I already pollinated ja got fruit to Set.
Click to expand...
 
It says that the F1 hybrid germinates normally.  When I read a chart like that, what it says to me, is that the seed will germinate, but no other info is given, relating to viability.  Maybe it's because it's a mixed bag.  Maybe part of the time there are seeds, part of the time not.  Part of the time viable, part of the time not.  "NG" for me is more of a grey area.
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Simple answer.  Maybe.  Maybe not.
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Best results come from staying within the species.
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That's as simple as it gets. ;)
 
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