shopping Purchasers responsibility with hybrids ?

teejay

teejay

Hi all,
 
I've been wondering about hybrid chilli's (as you do when you are bored at work ....)
 
I have little understanding of how it all comes together (and would appreciate any links on chilli genetics to learn but nothing too academic if possible).
 
As I understand it, the F numbers are generation numbers and some would say that F5 or higher is necessary for "stability".
 
I know that's a hot topic (no pun intended), and some might say higher, whereas others might say lower, but let's just imagine the true number is indeed F5 or higher
 
My question is then - if a vendor is selling hybrids at less than F5, do you think the purchaser has a responsibility to try and help the hybridisation get to F5 (and beyond) for the good of the growing community ?
 
I am in no way saying anything against vendors selling seed at less than F5, and if we didn't have such availability, how could the average grower participate if they are unsuccessful in starting a hybrid of their own ?
 
I hope my question makes sense - if not, I'll certainly have another crack at trying to explain myself, but then again, perhaps my question is without basis given my lack of knowledge of hybridisation and growing through the generations :think: .
 
Regards,
 
Tim
 
If you buy something, you are in no way obligated to do anything.
 
If you are given the seed with a condition that you continue the breeding line, then you should attempt to do so.
 
Anyone who is growing a stable line should be doing it themselves in order to control every step of the process. Having a back-up grow at another location is a good insurance policy though. 
 
This is not an easy topic...
My point of view is that you're free to grow unstable stuff and go on down with your own line but sincerely it makes sense only if you're directly involved with the original breeder and his goals.
How can you say if what you're growing is "stable"? What traits are you selecting? How many plants you will grow?
What i hate is seeing people growing 5-6 plants and calling it a selection, or distributing unstable stuff with a brand new name after a couple seasons...
I find more easy and interesting for the home grower to preserve pure lines sincerely cause the hybrid prolification will make pure varieties more and more rare and isolation is easier than breeding by far.
I'm not against small scale breeding, but for serious selection you need to concentrate on few varieties (ideally just one probably) and grow in BIG numbers IMHO.
If you can't properly select it's probably better to enjoy F1 outputs and stop there instead of spreading unstable stuff.
 
Cya
 
Datil
 
Agreed !!! Datil .....  Boom ! 
 
  As a small home gardener I find it hard to make sure everything ends up as a pure strain. I try my best but at times I see new seeds tossing something that's different.  Not at all what I was expecting. I don't find that out until harvest time . Sometimes the cross gives me something cool , sometimes a big fail. Because
I understand to really developed a new strain I need enough room to grow many of those plants to select from. You also need to have a vision of what you want to end up with and be willing to spend years on that goal. 
 
So when I end up with plants / peppers that don't give me what I was wanting .... the next year I step back to seeds that I know gave me the proper results . Seeds from several season's early. 
 
Peace
 
Datil said:
This is not an easy topic...
My point of view is that you're free to grow unstable stuff and go on down with your own line but sincerely it makes sense only if you're directly involved with the original breeder and his goals.
How can you say if what you're growing is "stable"? What traits are you selecting? How many plants you will grow?
What i hate is seeing people growing 5-6 plants and calling it a selection, or distributing unstable stuff with a brand new name after a couple seasons...
I find more easy and interesting for the home grower to preserve pure lines sincerely cause the hybrid prolification will make pure varieties more and more rare and isolation is easier than breeding by far.
I'm not against small scale breeding, but for serious selection you need to concentrate on few varieties (ideally just one probably) and grow in BIG numbers IMHO.
If you can't properly select it's probably better to enjoy F1 outputs and stop there instead of spreading unstable stuff.
 
Cya
 
Datil
Click to expand...
 
I completely disagree. There is nothing wrong with selecting on a small scale. I selected 1 out of 4 and 1 out of 3 with the traits I'm looking for this season. A bigger selection increases your chances of getting what you want but doesn't guarantee you will get what you want. Furthermore, we small growers trade our seeds with each other and are able to select with other growers. I want peppers that are suited to me and the climate I'm in rather than pure lines, so don't try to push your views on small time hybrid breeders. Pure lines don't interest me. What interests me is hybrids, stabilization, and the genetics of capsicum. We also don't charge you an arm and a leg for new breeds. They will be passed around in the community for free.
 
Agree - if you buy something without express conditions, it's yours to do with as you please. No obligation is entered into.
 
The Funny thing to me is how many people buy hybrid tomatoes or other plants and not think twice about them being stable. If you want to help someone that's cool but if it is like a lot of growers there growing enough plants that they wouldn't want seeds back from others, IMO. I like genetics and breeding so it's more out of fun I would try to cross a strain or Stabilize, but if I was trying to make money and made a strain that was good I wouldn't have 1,000 plants in a field and call them Isolated, F5 or more isn't op from a field it's f1, f2, f3, f4, f5 with 0% of pollen from any other plant but the plant the pod is grown from, so saying F5 from a op field of the same strain there really not F5 there Gen 5 from the first cross again, IMO. Only way to really breed true and to stabilize by breeding F matting's is by plant Isolation not Field Isolation IMO. Pepper Plant breeding isn't like animal breeding you don't have to have a male and a female to breed from.
 
i think too many here small scale, and large scale {in the pepper world anyway} they confuse their britches with the like of companies like monsanto who spend years and billions of dollars genetically altering plants and seeds for global scale production, scientist with phd's, million dollar law teams, patents, copyrights etc, with lobbyist, and FDA breathing down their backs, insurance policies to cover any liability that may arrise
 
now here we have some growers who cross a few plants in their greenhouse, sell them and feel they own every single seed produces from here to eternity
 
 
 
 
but my gut feeling tells me that these "hybrid" producers would tuck tail and run if their hybrid went wrong and caused health issues {possible unlikely} but you get my point
 
I'll be growing a few hybrids next year. Im definitely a small grower I don't have the space to grow more than 30 plants but for my self my hybrids will be isolsted from the rest of the varieties. I don't intend or plan to sell seeds but I do hope to trade them with other interested people. Its more for the funky potential result for me, not about being one step closer to stabilizing. I will pick froma plant which suits my preference. I don't know what the original owner was trying to achieve so I won't try to compete.
 
Sarge said:
I'll be growing a few hybrids next year. Im definitely a small grower I don't have the space to grow more than 30 plants but for my self my hybrids will be isolsted from the rest of the varieties. I don't intend or plan to sell seeds but I do hope to trade them with other interested people. Its more for the funky potential result for me, not about being one step closer to stabilizing. I will pick froma plant which suits my preference. I don't know what the original owner was trying to achieve so I won't try to compete.
Click to expand...
Very good point, what the "breeder" would pick might not be something I or anyone would pic the same plant/s to keep seeds from.
 
After some reading about heterotype versus homotype versus genotype versus phenotype (phew), I figured that a response has been provided above to which I should have already known with limited knowledge.
 
That is - indeed, how would the purchaser know what the hybrid originator was wanting to obtain and thus work toward it ?
 
Since I used to be heavily associated with Bromeliads, where every man and his dog was trying to breed something new with their name on it (there's no names like BrainStrain or Madballz amongst that lot but rather "Fred", or "Harry", or "Mary".....), and the end product for them is highly highly predictable, I assumed that chilli hybridising would also produce a expected outcome and thus it would be relatively easy to work toward it. (I'm no biologist for sure).
 
How wrong I was, and how newly educated I am. This is me for a while -> :silenced:, lest I assume too much, and you know what they say about assuming things :rofl: 
 
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