Quantifying Product Value - Political Science Students?

[AJ Drew]

I'd like some input.  It has been a long time since I was in school and between then and now, lost a huge chunk of memory.  So the terms I am going to use are likely wrong.

I think it might be a Marxist view that the value of a finished product should be determined by the labor necessary to produce it.  Although not a Marxist or any other flavor of communist outside of my immediate family, I kind of like the philosophy.  More money to those who labor more.  Something seems right about that.

Of course that is not the way things tend to work.  The people who make the most money do so by push button buying and selling of labors fruits rather than labor itself.  Still, it seems odd to me that since most of the folk in my country are labor class that there wouldn't be more labor based pricing on products.

Thoughts?
 

 

[Topsmoke]

In a free market economy people are free to buy what they want so a product's value is determined by demand not the energy to produce it.  This creates competition and drives innovation. "I now must find cheaper ways or better ways to produce my product if i want to keep selling them" ect.  When a product is valued by its "effort" instead of it's true benefit or demand you get an increasingly expensive and inferior product, i.e. public schooling.  In terms of salaries it dosent take great minds or unique individuals to turn screwdrivers, it takes them to make big decisions that involve the future of the co. itself and its employees.  It's funny how noone ever bitches about how much actors or athletes make but its the same principal, bigger monies means bigger talent.

 

[AJ Drew]

Topsmoke, I do not think I expressed my query well because your response wend elsewhere.  Let me try again.  Our local Walmart and Krogers offers a huge variety of locally grown produce.  The same produce is available directly from those who grow it for no more than what Walmart charges.  Obviously there is margin between what Walmart pays the producer and the price the consumer pays to Walmart for that produce.  It seems odd to me that working class would rather Walmart keep that margin than the working class producer.  I would think working class would value labor more than they do the resellers of the world who produce not a thing.
 
On your response, I think you are presenting a very now estimation of value.  The crapiest knife I have ever made is infinitely better than the stuff coming into the US from Pakistan.  What you are describing is a system where value is assigned by the ability to make money.  I value Amish made wood furniture a great deal more than the particle board furniture available at Walmart.  So while I agree very much with your assessment, it causes me to wonder why it is we have reduced value to nothing more than dollars and cents.

 

[SmokenFire]

A while back I read a book called Predictably Irrational. It details the myriad ways in which we assign value to things. I recommend it.

 

[AJ Drew]

I left out Henry vs. High Point.  They can crank out High Point fast, make tons of money.  It is a much better product to sell than a Henry in the money making department.  But Henry, oh hell its a Henry.

 

[JDFan]

 
 I value Amish made wood furniture a great deal more than the particle board furniture available at Walmart.

 
But to the general consumer that just needs a piece of furniture - the particle board from Walmart does what they need it to do and is readily available so they buy it rather than search for a source of the harder to find Amish made wood piece and when it breaks they just toss it and buy another.

 

[AJ Drew]

JDFan, ye but you buy the Amish made book shelf and you dont have to replace it every time your kids decide it is a jungle gym.  Then when you die, your kids get the book shelf for their kids to climb  on.  Maybe what I am observing is more that most folk can not afford higher dollar workmanship.  If that is the case, I think it interesting commentary on the flow of money from low income to the higher income folk who are mass producing the crap the lower income folk purchase.

Lots of folk complain to no end about Walmart but then they run their to buy that particle board book shelf instead of finding something quality made locally.  Very odd.  Dont like Walmart, dont shop there and they will go away.  Walmart needs customers more than customers need Walmart.

 

[Topsmoke]

"On your response, I think you are presenting a very now estimation of value"  did you mean now as in contemporary or was that suppossed to say "low estimation"
 
you are talking about two different definitions of value in the same question.  Value the price of an object and value the merit of an object.  The price value of an object is determined by scarcity and demand.  People put a premium on convenience not labor, so walmart wins out.  Personally, I try to buy local whenever possible and I put a premium on that, but I also expect a better product. I dont know if i agree with youre statement that we are mostly "laborers", Id say we are a nation of middle men.  I dont consider a cashier to be laboring, I dont consider a Gov employee to be laboring, I dont think of a blacksmith as a laborer, artisan is the proper term for the latter and space-filler for the afore.  Your knives arent valued by the length of time it takes to make them but by your skill in relation to other sources.  You could give me the best steel in the world and 10years to make a knife and it wont be as good as yours so why should it be more valuable?  15min of your time as a blacksmith is more valuble then 15hrs of mine when it comes to making knives. The real question you should be asking is why could our grandfathers make a superior product and charge less(after inflation) than we pay for walmart crap.
Id love to see your work btw, do you have a site for your blacksmithing?
 
sidenote - walmarts actually create a vortex of joblessness wherever they spring up because local businesses cant compete and go under leaving the only jobs in the area part-time at walmart

 

[AJ Drew]

Topsmoke, I do not have a site for the blacksmithing.  I have some physical challenges which have made forging very limited these past few years.  It is all I can do to have enough inventory to present well at the one renaissance festival I continue to do.  Maybe this year will be better.  It all depends on what doctors decide to do with my right foot. 

On Walmart, yes yes and did I mention yes?  That part of what I do not understand.  Working class flocks there and buys produce that other working class folk produced.  Walmart sucks up the margin and sends it out of the local economy, which damages working class.  Now if those same people bought that same produce from the same people who grow it, the money would stay in the local economy and that margin would be had by the producer, not the reseller.  I do not understand why people go buy Kentucky Proud produce at Walmart and Krogers when they can have the same thing at the same price at the farmers markets.

I guess I can understand the particle board furniture and imported crappy cutlery.  But same thing, same price, I do not understand it at all.

 

[Topsmoke]

again convenience.  i just bought hotdog buns at (cough) target because im lugging my kids around and i was already there.  as far as people causing their own financial ruin, theres lots of problems in the world that could be solved through critical thinking, unfortunately thinking of any kind is wildly unpopular and discouraged at every turn. "Butts" about your smithing, perhaps you need an apprentice.

 

[AJ Drew]

On apprentice idea, I can set myself on fire just fine.  I dont need help.  As you just pointed out, humans are not fond of critical thinking.

 

[Weed]

 When a product is valued by its "effort" instead of it's true benefit or demand you get an increasingly expensive and inferior product, i.e. public schooling.

 
Is this a commentary on socialism vs capitalism?

 

[Topsmoke]

 
Is this a commentary on socialism vs capitalism?

or, communism, or any economic system that doesn't uphold self ownership or tries to manipulate the market.

 

[Weed]

  When a product is valued by its "effort" instead of it's true benefit or demand you get an increasingly expensive and inferior product, i.e. public schooling.

 

or, communism, or any economic system that doesn't uphold self ownership or tries to manipulate the market.

 
 
You're basing this, I think, on a socialist bubble inside a capitalistic sphere. Where of course it gets increasingly expensive and inferior because that is how capitalism works.

 

[Topsmoke]

 
 
 
here of course it gets increasingly expensive and inferior because that is how capitalism works.

what are you basing that on?  we have never lived in a capitalist society.  we live in a socialist corporatism where the gains of your personal work and effort is distributed by a centralized gov that then manipulates the market on the behalf of corporate interests.  many mistake corporatism (collusion of corporations and gov) as capitalism but this in incorrect.  capitalism is based on self ownership.  you own yourself and your time.  anything gained through your efforts are yours to do with as you wish and sell at your discretion at the price you deem fit.  this allows for competition which spurs innovation and lower prices, both good for the consumer.  if you want to see the result of socialism on a product look at the cars that came out of eastern europe at the time of the eastern block. if you do not own the product of your efforts you don't own yourself, if you dont own yourself then you are a slave.  true capitalism is the only moral choice for an economy until we transcend the need for currency.  technology is bringing this about however those in high places like the power that their corporatism garners them and so they do what they can to resist.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpfjuj99xg4

 

[Weed]

what are you basing that on?  we have never lived in a capitalist society.  we live in a socialist corporatism where the gains of your personal work and effort is distributed by a centralized gov that then manipulates the market on the behalf of corporate interests.  many mistake corporatism (collusion of corporations and gov) as capitalism but this in incorrect.  capitalism is based on self ownership.  you own yourself and your time.  anything gained through your efforts are yours to do with as you wish and sell at your discretion at the price you deem fit.  this allows for competition which spurs innovation and lower prices, both good for the consumer.  if you want to see the result of socialism on a product look at the cars that came out of eastern europe at the time of the eastern block. if you do not own the product of your efforts you don't own yourself, if you dont own yourself then you are a slave.  true capitalism is the only moral choice for an economy until we transcend the need for currency.  technology is bringing this about however those in high places like the power that their corporatism garners them and so they do what they can to resist.

 
Corporatism is a result of capitalism.
 
Many mistake them as separate entities, much like themselves, but this is incorrect.
 
The very cells of a human body are outnumbered 10 to 1 by other cells. You are an ecosystem with individual tendencies but you're not an individual biologically, politically or financially.
 
Ownership of the self and the feeling of individual worth is what starts all the problems described in that video. Communism, socialism, corporatism, democracy et all are just slighty, and I mean slightly, different versions of each other.

 

[Topsmoke]

AJ if its a prob that weve hijacked your post let me know bro and ill cut it out.
 

 
Corporatism is a result of capitalism.
 
Many mistake them as separate entities, much like themselves, but this is incorrect.
 
The very cells of a human body are outnumbered 10 to 1 by other cells. You are an ecosystem with individual tendencies but you're not an individual biologically, politically or financially.
 
Ownership of the self and the feeling of individual worth is what starts all the problems described in that video. Communism, socialism, corporatism, democracy et all are just slighty, and I mean slightly, different versions of each other.

again we cant say that corporatism is a result of capitilism since weve never experienced such.  There where once strict laws restricting corporations in their ability to exsist, influence the populace and even the duration of its exsistence.  Im no fan of democracy either, since it is mob rule.  "51% can take away the rights of the other 49% with a single vote" - Tom J.  So then are you suggesting anarchy? really we are discussing economics not politics so we cant reference  corporatism, democracyor anarchism in that context.  I do believe governments of all types are inherently evil but I think in an anarchist society you will have capitilism as the economic system because there will be no gov to instill its will and self ownership will remain.  I am only myself, I only know what i know, i only feel what i feel, I only experience what i experience who am i if not an individual? and if i dont own myself who has the right to?

 

[Weed]

AJ if its a prob that weve hijacked your post let me know bro and ill cut it out.
 
again we cant say that corporatism is a result of capitilism since weve never experienced such.  There where once strict laws restricting corporations in their ability to exsist, influence the populace and even the duration of its exsistence.  Im no fan of democracy either, since it is mob rule.  "51% can take away the rights of the other 49% with a single vote" - Tom J.  So then are you suggesting anarchy? really we are discussing economics not politics so we cant reference  corporatism, democracyor anarchism in that context.  I do believe governments of all types are inherently evil but I think in an anarchist society you will have capitilism as the economic system because there will be no gov to instill its will and self ownership will remain.  I am only myself, I only know what i know, i only feel what i feel, I only experience what i experience who am i if not an individual? and if i dont own myself who has the right to?

 
I think there are plenty of previous examples of capitalist democracies evolving into corporate states.
 
The system your video and you describes seems like all the same principles as anarchy to me.
 
If you only experience/feel what you experience/feel then why do you have mirror neurons whose purpose is to experience/feel what others feel/experience?
 
I think the whole idea of capitalism is wrong because I dont believe that one planet with finite resources should be a game of finders keepers. Taking from nature indiscriminately causes problems. We already know this through empirical observation.
 
Individuals are temporary. Nothing is owned its just borrowed for a while from nature. Why keep acting in a manner opposite to the fabric of the universe or even the planet? Because someone turned the game of life into Monopoly?

 

[Topsmoke]

"I think there are plenty of previous examples of capitalist democracies evolving into corporate states"  examples?
 
side note - we were ment to be a republic (the rights of the individual trump the masses) not a democracy
 
Mirror neurons are still filtered through the interpretation of the indvidual. example - when the guy at the freakshow sticks a needle through his skin I cringe but he does not.  I am experiencing what i expect him to feel not what he is actually feeling, therefore i only experience what i experience.
 
anarchism is the fullest exspression of liberty. liberty is if nothing the right to choose, which comes with responsibility and a moral obligation.  Again, corporatism can rape the land because the gov will initiate violence against me on behalf of the Co. if i oppose. This is not the case in capitalism where individuals have to deal with other individuals who may have something to say about me "clear cutting". If the resources are finite which they are for now, then who gets to decide who gets what? and will you enforce that through threat of violence? 
 
"Nothing is owned its just borrowed for a while from nature" - im pretty sure my thoughts and feelings are my own, yes the material that makes up my neural net will be recycled but a poem i write was formed from nothing but my intent and efforts and will be mine forever.
 
"Why keep acting in a manner opposite to the fabric of the universe or even the planet" I do not presume to understand the fabric of anything but myself, to do so seems incredible arrogant.  I am only a man, I only understand man things and not that well.  All I know for sure is there is much i dont know.
 
if everything is everyones, i can use your house and your family and your body, your words your thoughts without your consent? if thats the case why does it matter if i use all the redwoods, there are no individuals so its like we all used them (No tone there, just exspressing an idea)
 
So if self ownership isnt the answer... what is your solution? 
 
p.s. are you a buddhist? Im just trying to understand your frame of refernce.

 

[Weed]

"Nothing is owned its just borrowed for a while from nature" - im pretty sure my thoughts and feelings are my own, yes the material that makes up my neural net will be recycled but a poem i write was formed from nothing but my intent and efforts and will be mine forever.
 

 
You dont think your thoughts and feelings are recycled?