breeding Question on Hybrids/phenotypes

[nzchili]

Hey guys, quick question.
This is kind of hard for me to explain what im thinking but here goes;
 
Say I have an F5 hybrid and I grew out 3 plants of it.
 
Two of those plants turn out true to form, but one is a different phenotype & looks different from the others. Its hotter, looks different, is bigger, or whatever. So it did not grow true as such, but you want to continue with that strain.
 
If you plant the seeds from the off-phenotype plant, even though this variation just appeared in 1 out of 3 plants @ F5 stage, will that off-phenotype still in effect be F6 when planted and almost stable? (stable to the off-pheno type)
 
Hope that makes sense..
cheers 

 

[juanitos]

no, it'll be f1
 
you are stabilizing a specific phenotype if it changes or you select one that is different than the original pheno type you started out trying to stabilize then... 

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

     As long as the seed that produced the different plant was the product of self-fertilization of its parent's flower, then that plant will be f6.

 

[nzchili]

hmmmm two conflicting answers

 

[juanitos]

     As long as the seed that produced the different plant was the product of self-fertilization of its parent's flower, then that plant will be f6.

 

hmmmm two conflicting answers

 
he's technically correct .. i guess, if you can ensure that it was self pollinated.
 
the fact we are growing a different pheno than we were before indicates something is different. either the genotype or environment.. If the environment is the same as the f5 was grown and you select a different pheno you are going in the wrong direction if you are trying to stabilize the strain as you most certainly just selected a plant with a different genotype.
 
you can call it an f6 but that seems shady no?
 
i'm unsure.

 

[Devil Created Pods]

Hm. That's a tough one... Hard to get me not to know an answer. Congrats! Lol. I say F1 but I suppose it could be F6 too. Beats me man. 

 

[nzchili]

ok so to confuse things even more - what about at F3 stage when they are still quite unstable so are likely to get multiple plants of, multiple different pheno's.
surely if you planted some of each resulting pheno, each would be F4 and more stable then the F1/F2? lol who knows 
 
How about a genetic mutation? how does that become stable?
If a plant was fertilised by its own pollen, and a plant from the pod grew and had a genetic mutation (again, it could be bigger, hotter, look different, or whatever), would that be an F1? or would it be inherently more stable because it was a mutation and not a cross?

 

[Swampy_NZ]

I think you are confusing things.The "F" 1,2,3,4 etc just denotes the number of generations since the original cross.It  doesn't really matter if you get a F5 plant that shows a different pheno from the others.If you want to start crossing that plant the next generation will still be a F6.Its just a numbering system to keep track of generations since the P(Parent)plant cross.If you want to take the F5 pheno and make it a new Parent plant then you start all over again with P+P,if you want to continue crossing with the original line then the next generation will be F6 no matter what pheno you choose.I hope that makes sense   
This is probably one of the better videos out there explaining things
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWqgZUnJdAY

 

[KrakenPeppers]

If you have your F5 seed stock that was self polinated and it throws off a random plant and continue on breeding it (self pollinating)then officially the genetics of that plant should be closer to stabisation , anytime a plant throws out receives that match and change the plants attributes, the resulting plants via inbreeding shouldn't have that old dominant gene available anymore to affect the next gen..it would be adifferent story if a recesive went to a dominant like all the plants were yellow then a red popped up.. By breeding that red there's a strong cance that the other half of the gene is a recesive yellow .. IF that makes sense

 

[nzchili]

Thanks for the replies
 
Yes so, im pretty much getting at planting the "off-type" seeds from almost stable varieties where the plant/seeds/pod was self pollinated.
 
Just as an example say at F5, the plant is 80% stable or uniform (not sure what the exact number is). Anyway, if you go and plant seeds from one of those remaining 20% that did not grow uniform/true (and the plant was self pollinated), then you are already closer to a new stable variety or stable pheno whatever you want to call it.
 
So in theory you could grow loads of F3's, and F4's and you could create multiple varieties from the same seeds by picking different traits and continuing to fertilise those with their own pollen. So you can pretty much skip the earlier generations if your happy with the original parents and keep rolling the dice on the lower generations to get new types.
 
When plants are stable, or 99.98% or whatever it is. If you did get an off type plant at a 0.02% chance, in theory the seeds from it would be inherently stable if it was fertilized by itself? Cool.

 

[mrgrowguy]

Hey guys, quick question.
This is kind of hard for me to explain what im thinking but here goes;
 
Say I have an F5 hybrid and I grew out 3 plants of it.
 
Two of those plants turn out true to form, but one is a different phenotype & looks different from the others. Its hotter, looks different, is bigger, or whatever. So it did not grow true as such, but you want to continue with that strain.
 
If you plant the seeds from the off-phenotype plant, even though this variation just appeared in 1 out of 3 plants @ F5 stage, will that off-phenotype still in effect be F6 when planted and almost stable? (stable to the off-pheno type)
 
Hope that makes sense..
cheers 

 
 
For what it's worth, my opinion, you would have an F6 and yes, it would be simply the next step in filtering out the traits you do not desire. Since 1 of 3 popped desirably, it is likely that [most of] the progeny of that one will show the same desired traits, BUT make sure not to cross any pollination from the siblings or you will be re-introducing the traits which are not as favorable (also, do not back-cross, same issue)

Thanks for the replies
 
Yes so, im pretty much getting at planting the "off-type" seeds from almost stable varieties where the plant/seeds/pod was self pollinated.
 
Just as an example say at F5, the plant is 80% stable or uniform (not sure what the exact number is). Anyway, if you go and plant seeds from one of those remaining 20% that did not grow uniform/true (and the plant was self pollinated), then you are already closer to a new stable variety or stable pheno whatever you want to call it.
 
So in theory you could grow loads of F3's, and F4's and you could create multiple varieties from the same seeds by picking different traits and continuing to fertilise those with their own pollen. So you can pretty much skip the earlier generations if your happy with the original parents and keep rolling the dice on the lower generations to get new types.
 
When plants are stable, or 99.98% or whatever it is. If you did get an off type plant at a 0.02% chance, in theory the seeds from it would be inherently stable if it was fertilized by itself? Cool.

 
 
...Exactly - the second to last (and the last paragraph- same logic) is mostly true because you have already removed a lot of other less desirable traits in creating the F3 or F4 stage.

 

[KrakenPeppers]

 
 
For what it's worth, my opinion, you would have an F6 and yes, it would be simply the next step in filtering out the traits you do not desire. Since 1 of 3 popped desirably, it is likely that [most of] the progeny of that one will show the same desired traits, BUT make sure not to cross any pollination from the siblings or you will be re-introducing the traits which are not as favorable (also, do not back-cross, same.

Exactly , it's hard to lock down a plant with resecives and make them stable over a plant that's using dominant .. When a throw back like that happens it can knock out some dominants fairly cleanly .. But as mentioned the risk of re-introduction is much higher if you crossed back or to a sibling...

 

[mrgrowguy]

Exactly , it's hard to lock down a plant with resecives and make them stable over a plant that's using dominant .. When a throw back like that happens it can knock out some dominants fairly cleanly .. But as mentioned the risk of re-introduction is much higher if you crossed back or to a sibling...

 
 
Working with peppers is lucky, that they self pollinate. Try working recessives in plants with singular sexes... (like canna.) You have to back cross or inbreed with the dominant to be able to produce [by chance, or a large enough sampling pool] another recessive of the opposite sex. In other words, almost twice the work! That is, if you want to make progeny of the recessive plant. If you just clone or feminize  (canna. again) then it doesn't really matter. Just keep cloning that one plant because you already have what you want .
 
.

 

[AaronTT]

We can't forget the difference between crossbreeding and hybridization. If its a true hybrid and not just a cross, then it would stay a f6. Its genes are still the product of the original parents. Technically I don't see how it can become a F1, unless crossed to a completely different and distinct variety. Even then the offspring would be the F1, and not the parent. If its original parents are not distinctive different and stable(different genetics), then its not a hybrid, but a cross. So I think it remains an F6, but a different phenotype.
 
In the plant kingdom it takes two distinctly different plants to create an F1 hybrid. If not, its a cross. Any working of that plant cannot be considered a new F1 hybrid, unless a completely new set of genetic material is introduced into that line, in order to remain true to the definition. F1 terminology only applies to hybrids, and not crosses. F1 means the first generation of two true to type distinctive and different parents. This is where you get the term "hybrid vigor".
 
 
Example of true Hybrid:
Tobasco X Bhut Jolokia - completely different genes, even genuses are different
 
Example of a cross:
Yellow 7 pot X 7 Pot red.
 
I think I said that right, unless I am missing something.

 

[Dulac]

It's F6. It's probably recessive genes if the others look uniform and it is the odd one out. Recessive genes rule out dominant genes, so it could be more stable than the others hypothetically.
 

How about a genetic mutation? how does that become stable?
If a plant was fertilised by its own pollen, and a plant from the pod grew and had a genetic mutation (again, it could be bigger, hotter, look different, or whatever), would that be an F1? or would it be inherently more stable because it was a mutation and not a cross?

Genetic mutations are extremely rare and mostly go unnoticed. It usually takes more than one mutation for us to notice a change. The genetic mutation plant would be stable not an F1.

 

[KrakenPeppers]

It's F6. It's probably recessive genes if the others look uniform and it is the odd one out. Recessive genes rule out dominant genes, so it could be more stable than the others hypothetically.
 

Genetic mutations are extremely rare and mostly go unnoticed. It usually takes more than one mutation for us to notice a change. The genetic mutation plant would be stable not an F1.

I'm currently sitting on a mutant plant, I have every intent on growing several children to it to see if it carries on and have several crosses already podding atm..

Chocolate Habanero x Mutant Peach Bhut
7 Pod Barrackapore x Mutant Peach Bhut
Mutant Peach Bhut x Brazilian Starfish

I haven't even identified the true variety of the mutant yet as it isn't a peach Bhut , that was just what it was supposed to be.. Hope to be closer to an answer in the next week or so when the pods ripen.

I'll know if these stay mutant hopefully by the flowers having multiple stamens and conjoined flowers

That being said, the genes of a mutant should be stable provided it was coming from or meant to be a stable plant variety