soil Soil Science - Rock Dust, the debate

[Robisburning]

I read the information recently provided by Proud Marine Dad, thank you.  I found it so compelling I was searching for a source of Rock dust when I stumbled across another information source with a scientific breakdown of the value of Rockdust: http://www.agknowledge.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Fertiliser-Review-Issue-15.pdf See the bottom of page 3 and page 4.  I found it interesting how they valued it in terms of equivalent fertilizer.  The founder of the New Zealand based Rockdust supplier said the following:
 
“.... our system of soil fertility bears no relationship to the NPK
“Balance Sheet” theory, which you advocate, and therefore
cannot be measured, or compared to such a theory.” The
only system I advocate is the sensible practical application of
soil and plant science to ensure that soil, plant and animal,
health, and production, is achieved and maintained, at the
least cost for the farmer. To suggest that his company has its
own system, distinct from this, which cannot be measured, is
to advocate a dogma. New Zealand farming deserves better
than this.
 
I stated this as a new topic so as not to clutter Proud Marine Dads thread.  I am not convinced either way so thought we could discuss it. My question is how do you know if Rockdust works if it can't be measured in terms of NPK? Is it a physical property the Rockdust introduces?  Do we have any idea of the bio availability of the Rockdust nutrients? I am interested in others thoughts on Rockdust.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

It works because it provides a home for bacteria to adhere to so that they form longer strands to feed the plants root system from my understanding. N-P-K numbers have no bearing on how a plant grows they are simply measurements of the three main nutrients a plant uses. There are a lot more micronutrients than the three people seem to think are the most important. We are talking about the symbiotic relationship the plant shares with the soil food web here not how much NPK is there. The soil food web creates what a plant needs. Read Teaming With Microbes for starters.
Rock dust is not a miracle additive that is going to make the plant produce on a level that is going to astound you.
It is just another tool to aid in the symbiotic relationship of the organisms within the soil food web. A diverse soil is always a good thing and rock dust as well as other areas of newer science such as biochar are things to consider.

 

[Robisburning]

I have teaming with Microbes on order, it will be here any day.  I have a further question.  Do you think the guy who wrote the review was being intentionally obtuse?  I would not review a car, for example, and say it it poor value as it only contains $1900 worth of materials.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

I have no idea why he said what he did and one can only guess what his intent was. I didn't read the link only what you posted in quotes so I would have to look into it more.

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

It works because it provides a home for bacteria to adhere to so that they form longer strands to feed the plants root system from my understanding. 

     That's interesting. I had always heard what was likely an oversimplified explanation of rock dust's benefit to soil and plant health. I was under the impression that it was simply a slow-release source of micronutrients. Thus, I considered it frivolous and gimmicky.  
     Anyone who has a hardwood tree on their property likely has all the micronutrients they need. Hardwood trees have deep roots that, with the help of mycorrhizae, mine subsoil and bedrock for minerals and deposit them on the ground each fall as leaf litter. When properly composted, these minerals become chelated by the humus created by the decomposing leaves - yielding a good slow release fertilizer as well as a home for microbes.
     It still seems to me to be something that would only be of noticeable effect in severely depleted soil. I don't think healthy soils like forest humus or the 12' (yes, I said twelve foot) deep, jet black soil in which I'm fortunate enough to grow would be noticeably improved upon by adding it.
    But, I'll admit, you have given me reason to reconsider it. (I've got some reading to do…) BTW, I think soil science is one place where you and I are in complete agreement. It's one of the most fascinating areas of science to study and explore. I have been working with it and studying it on a professional level for over ten years now, (I guess you could say I have a "dirty" mind!  ) and it's beauty and complexity never ceases to blow my mind.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

Thanks Dash and well said. I think a source of secondary nutrients is also a part of rock dust's job and another reason to consider it.
The very knowledgeable growers on the cannabis forums swear by it and these guys are, in my humble opinion, some of the most knowledgeable growers in the world and seem to stay on the cutting edge most of the time and rightly so with such a valuable crop. Sure there are some who espouse things that sound like hocus pocus but you know what I mean. 
I grow in containers exclusively as well so this is an area that interests me as I don't have the things in the ground like hardwood trees that you mentioned to help create a great atmosphere of soil biology naturally.
I mentioned rock dust to a woman who's company across the bay from me has been supplying gardeners and landscapers with quality organic materials for 30 years and she was not aware of rock dust other than azomite and green glacial rock dust that they sell but she was under the impression it was for minerals as well. She said she is going to mention it to Dr. Elaine Ingham when she talks to her soon. I would love to hear Dr. Ingham's thoughts on the subject as she is on he leading edge of soil biology.

 

[Zoli]

Giving plants all the nutrients they need is not just important because they will grow faster or produce more. It will also change its flavor, in a positive way, which does not just make it more delicious but more healthy as well. Think about supermarket vegetables/fruits compared to home grown. Home grown is always better and not just because its fresh and picked when ripe

 

[Robisburning]

     I have been working with it and studying it on a professional level for over ten years now, (I guess you could say I have a "dirty" mind!  ) and it's beauty and complexity never ceases to blow my mind.

 
I will leave you and your dirty mind aloam.

Giving plants all the nutrients they need is not just important because they will grow faster or produce more. It will also change its flavor, in a positive way, which does not just make it more delicious but more healthy as well. Think about supermarket vegetables/fruits compared to home grown. Home grown is always better and not just because its fresh and picked when ripe

 
I must say I am not sure I agree with this.  Is there any evidence that supermarket veges lack flavor due to a lack of nutrients?  Commercial growers would work to ensure no nutrient is limiting a plants growth, yields and hence their bottom line.  The plant nutrient in the least concentration (relative to the plants requirements) will limit growth. 
 
Reasons abound for poor flavor - genetics (bred for weight/looks), ripening off the vine etc.

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

 
 aloam.

 
 

     Ha! Science jokes - very humorous!   

 

[Teurf]

It works because it provides a home for bacteria to adhere to so that they form longer strands to feed the plants root system from my understanding. N-P-K numbers have no bearing on how a plant grows they are simply measurements of the three main nutrients a plant uses. There are a lot more micronutrients than the three people seem to think are the most important. We are talking about the symbiotic relationship the plant shares with the soil food web here not how much NPK is there. The soil food web creates what a plant needs. Read Teaming With Microbes for starters.
Rock dust is not a miracle additive that is going to make the plant produce on a level that is going to astound you.
It is just another tool to aid in the symbiotic relationship of the organisms within the soil food web. A diverse soil is always a good thing and rock dust as well as other areas of newer science such as biochar are things to consider.

 
Hey Marine Dad, I read Teaming with Microbes and was inspired by this reading. I then noticed the author published a second book in May 2013: Teaming with Nutrients. I have read the 3 first chapters, and so far it is vegetable/plant plant biology 101 and brings me back to college.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Nutrients-Gardeners-Optimizing-Nutrition/dp/1604693142
 
Even though, it is a good refresher and it has good emphasis on the fact that a plant does not solely rely on N-P-K and Ca/Mg. It also does the link to some information mentioned in the previous book.
 
If you guys have not read it already, I suggested you do, it is pretty interesting.
Teurf

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

     I gotta get those books! They sound like something I'd really, um, DIG! Ok, ok. No more dirtY jokes. 
 
 
 
(Edited in hopes of wringing even more soil humor out of this pun. Did not succeed…)

 

[Zoli]

 
I will leave you and your dirty mind aloam.

 
I must say I am not sure I agree with this.  Is there any evidence that supermarket veges lack flavor due to a lack of nutrients?  Commercial growers would work to ensure no nutrient is limiting a plants growth, yields and hence their bottom line.  The plant nutrient in the least concentration (relative to the plants requirements) will limit growth. 
 
Reasons abound for poor flavor - genetics (bred for weight/looks), ripening off the vine etc.

Check this guy out. Forget NPK I'm not talking about the main nutrients a plant needs. Think about flavor. Yes genetics determines what flavor each fruit/veggie can have and unripe ones also contain less nutrients so they will taste worse. Flavor = nutrients, a unique cocktail of minerals and vitamins. I'm not saying supermarket ones are bad, I'm saying home grown is better if you know what you are doing.

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

Hey Marine Dad, I read Teaming with Microbes and was inspired by this reading. I then noticed the author published a second book in May 2013: Teaming with Nutrients. I have read the 3 first chapters, and so far it is vegetable/plant plant biology 101 and brings me back to college.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Nutrients-Gardeners-Optimizing-Nutrition/dp/1604693142
 
Even though, it is a good refresher and it has good emphasis on the fact that a plant does not solely rely on N-P-K and Ca/Mg. It also does the link to some information mentioned in the previous book.
 
If you guys have not read it already, I suggested you do, it is pretty interesting.
Teurf

Thanks Teurf and yes I have Teaming With Nutrients as well and you are correct, it is like a college course in plant biology and I find it hard to stay interested in it.

I will leave you and your dirty mind aloam.
 
I must say I am not sure I agree with this.  Is there any evidence that supermarket veges lack flavor due to a lack of nutrients?  Commercial growers would work to ensure no nutrient is limiting a plants growth, yields and hence their bottom line.  The plant nutrient in the least concentration (relative to the plants requirements) will limit growth. 
 
Reasons abound for poor flavor - genetics (bred for weight/looks), ripening off the vine etc.

Cannabis is far better organically grown in soil and nobody denies that, even the hydroponic growers.

 

[Robisburning]

I agree home grown tomatoes often taste better than their store bought counterparts, I have experienced this, We were talking about the cause of those differences.
 
I watched the video you suggested but as they compared different types of peppers, it does not have a lot of meaning. We had already agreed that there is a significant genetic component.  Brix is a measure of sugar content, it says nothing of the other nutrient content and we can agree, in fact, if the solution were 100% sucrose there would be no other nutrients by definition. Even if Brix were a measure of nutrient concentration, that doesn't talk to flavor. The video is completely irrelevant to our discussion other than the fact it mentions peppers.
 
Also as Brix is really a measure of specific gravity the temperature of the measurements is important.  He tested one pepper straight from the fridge and another straight from the plant in the sun, it is just not a rigorous comparison.