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pests Spinosad...aphids...fail
- Thread starter Roguejim
- Start date
Rubbish. You just have to be smart about your whole approach and find the right organic treatments rather then going for a quick fix when your problem is out of control. Neem works fine for some things. Sulphur works fine for some things. Natural predators work fine for some things.
Successful organics revolves around a holistic approach to the entire garden and bugs.
With organic chemical use (like sulphur) as a last resort.
Organic remedies imply that you keep a certain "balance" , so you can tolerate some aphid presence keeping it under control but hardly removing the problem at all.
You need patience and constant work. If you are short on time like me, probably some shortcut can be tolered. No need to be organic orthodox IMHO.
Neemazal (at least in my country) is officially allowed in organic farming so in not THAT bad.
Cya
Datil
You need patience and constant work. If you are short on time like me, probably some shortcut can be tolered. No need to be organic orthodox IMHO.
Neemazal (at least in my country) is officially allowed in organic farming so in not THAT bad.
Cya
Datil
I agree. I've about had it with bugs during this indoor grow. I can't wait until my plants go outside. I think one of the first things I am going to do is give them a bath in Sevin. The plants will thank me for it. I keep thinking about using it indoors, but the label keeps me at bay and using Azamax/Azatrol instead- which isn't half bad and does work pretty good.
I have to agree that responsible use is the key to any pesticide (organic or otherwise) regiment. I cannot agree that Azamax has the same results as neem oil. They are both ultimately derived from Neem, however, Azamax seems to have a bit a of residual affect where Neem is contact only AND results in a buildup on plant material that eventually hurts the plants ability to respire. I have used both, and in my experience the Azamax is a completely different approach with far superior results. I am NOT discounting the use of non-organic methods, there are a lot of great products out there that can solve pest problems quickly and effectively. Both organics and inorganics can break your bank if you are not informed and careful about how you use them.
I have looked into this product as well. From what I understand, it works out to be about the same price as Azamax when you figure in the concentration ratio and how much "ready" product each makes. Azasol is just a powdered concentrate where Azamax is a liquid concentrate. I believe they are essentially the same product at the end of the day.
Rubbish? Resorting to chemicals has never been a "quick fix" for me. In the eight + years I've been growing peppers I've spent hundreds of dollars and countless hours being "smart". Using a bunch of different organic solutions for pest control every three or four days for years was the reason I finally went to chemicals. Nothing quick about the decision. Organics have been nothing but an exercise in futility, tiresome and usually a waste of time and money as the pests always come back. If you want to use a fleet of different organics to handle your pests knock yourself out. Calling my comments rubbish is arrogant and condescending.
gpstore I have never used asamax. My remark was based on using different brands of organics that had the same "killer" ingredient and finding they failed. I would love to hear how it's worked for you.
Saying organics don't work is rubbish. Call that what you may, arrogance, condescending whatever if I hurt your pride I apologise but I don't take it back.
To make a blanket statement saying something so absolute you have to expect to be called on it as far as I am concerned.
Every time I express an opinion I expect someone will think its rubbish but if I believe in my idea that is fine by me.
I dont see why you think that is arrogance ... maybe you just don't like being challenged on your opinion and maybe that is where the arrogance sits.
Organics don't usually rely on eradication but control and balance of the garden and pests and a long term view to the balance. They also have no reason to be any more expensive then conventional gardening.
Its probably a state of mind that everything in our gardens need to be ordered and neat when in reality nature never intended things to be grown in isolation and rows.
Opinions and criticism on my view points are more then welcome
NB. If anyone wants to use non organic chemicals that is fine by me as its your choice. Opinions are like assholes .... everyone has one
To make a blanket statement saying something so absolute you have to expect to be called on it as far as I am concerned.
Every time I express an opinion I expect someone will think its rubbish but if I believe in my idea that is fine by me.
I dont see why you think that is arrogance ... maybe you just don't like being challenged on your opinion and maybe that is where the arrogance sits.
Organics don't usually rely on eradication but control and balance of the garden and pests and a long term view to the balance. They also have no reason to be any more expensive then conventional gardening.
Its probably a state of mind that everything in our gardens need to be ordered and neat when in reality nature never intended things to be grown in isolation and rows.
Opinions and criticism on my view points are more then welcome
NB. If anyone wants to use non organic chemicals that is fine by me as its your choice. Opinions are like assholes .... everyone has one
If you had taken a moment to explain what you were calling rubbish my response would have been different. It appeared to me you were saying resorting to chemicals was rubbish. Since that made me believe you were looking down on anyone who used chemicals I consider that arrogant. Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, I enjoy a good discussion.
I usually don't speak in absolutes, only the Sith do that. However in my experience I have never used an organic bug killer that was 100% effective. The aphids came back every single time. As for expense the chemicals are more expensive up front. I've gone through countless bottles of organics and I still have the bottle of Ortho Max I purchased three years ago. If you were to look at my past grow logs you'll quickly see that being neat and orderly is not high on my list of priorities.
I usually don't speak in absolutes, only the Sith do that. However in my experience I have never used an organic bug killer that was 100% effective. The aphids came back every single time. As for expense the chemicals are more expensive up front. I've gone through countless bottles of organics and I still have the bottle of Ortho Max I purchased three years ago. If you were to look at my past grow logs you'll quickly see that being neat and orderly is not high on my list of priorities.
I must have gotten lucky with my aphid problem. I found some ladybugs trying to winter in other parts of my house and captured them for relocation to the grow room.
In total 14 ladybugs were relocated and within a week my aphid problem was gone.
I read somewhere that garlic discouraged aphids so i planted two garlic cloves in each pot. That is most likely nonsense, i'm pretty sure the aphids were just a nice snack for the ladybougs.
In total 14 ladybugs were relocated and within a week my aphid problem was gone.
I read somewhere that garlic discouraged aphids so i planted two garlic cloves in each pot. That is most likely nonsense, i'm pretty sure the aphids were just a nice snack for the ladybougs.
wow azamax is so expensive? lol why?
i have a bottle of Abamectin, does a better job and costs 66 cents a gallon to run... and has a residual kill for almost 6 weeks.
idk why you guys kill yourselves chasing the organic label, i spend literally only 10 minutes a month dealing with pests.
i have a bottle of Abamectin, does a better job and costs 66 cents a gallon to run... and has a residual kill for almost 6 weeks.
idk why you guys kill yourselves chasing the organic label, i spend literally only 10 minutes a month dealing with pests.
Well I personally have children who eat my Chilli's who have yet still to develop in adults and who may want to have children when they are older. Anything that can potentially effect development and reproductive health in them I try to avoid especially something that is systematic within the plant for that long.
It also has been shown to cause tremors and is not something that sounds appealing to me considering I know 3 people who had (while alive)or have Parkinson's disease.
Bees are highly susceptible to it as are aquatic animals and birds.
Short term studies show its safe in certain doses to humans but not so safe environmentally... is it worth the risk .... not to me personally but you go for it. That's why I stick with organics.
i was not impressed with malathion, stuff stinks too. i got better results with permethrin... against caterpillars anyway.
lol the tremors you mentioned are at a rate of like 2mg/kg per day in in rats for multiple years.
i wont go into the math, but thats going to be like 10,000 bucks worth of abamectin .15 if you bought quart bottles for 2 years.
its actual acute toxicity in rats is like a gram per kg... you would have to drink like half a gallon of .15ec Abamectin in order to achieve this...
and yea bees will get absolutly destroyed by abamectin, you aare not supposed to spray this stuff during the day, you do it at dusk because 1, it is decomposed by sunlight, and 2 its going to kill any beas that show up to mess with the plants.
unfortunatly bees are insects, abamectin acts on receptors that are shared by most insects and mites.
azamax is only a contact miticide. guess where all the mites are lol on the bottom. with abamectin you spray the top of the leaves, it migrates through the leaves into the tissue. the mites on the bottom will die. this is the reason its so effective.
its all but impossible to wipe mites out with azamax, unless you manage to spray the bottoms of every single leaf.
you are wrong about birds, i just checked and birds are apparently uneffected. and in order to kill fish with the stuff, you have to be wildly irresponsible spraying in wind in very large amounts. again this goes back to just reading the lable, always follow the lable when applying.
i spray at night with 1ml/gallon of ape, virtually none of it is wasted as it sticks excellently with the surfactant.
- Effects on birds: Abamectin is practically nontoxic to birds [142]. The LD50 for abamectin in bobwhite quail is >2000 mg/kg. The dietary LC50 is 3102 ppm in bobwhite quail [145]. There were no adverse effects on reproduction when mallard ducks were fed dietary doses of 3, 6, or 12 ppm for 18 weeks [145].
- Effects on aquatic organisms: Abamectin is highly toxic to fish and extremely toxic to aquatic invertebrates [142]. Its LC50 (96-hour) is 0.003 mg/L in rainbow trout, 0.0096 mg/L in bluegill sunfish, 0.015 mg/L in sheepshead minnows, 0.024 mg/L in channel catfish, and 0.042 mg/L in carp. Its 48-hour LC50 in Daphnia magna, a small freshwater crustacean, is 0.003 mg/L. The 96-hour LC50 for abamectin is 0.0016 mg/L in pink shrimp, 430 mg/L in eastern oysters, and 153 mg/L in blue crab [145]. While highly toxic to aquatic organisms, actual concentrations of abamectin in surface waters adjacent to treated areas are expected to be low. Abamectin did not bioaccumulate in bluegill sunfish exposed to 0.099 ug/L for 28 days in a flow-through tank. The levels in fish were from 52 to 69 times the ambient water concentration, indicating that abamectin does not accumulate or persist in fish [145].
- Effects on other organisms: Abamectin is highly toxic to bees, with a 24-hour contact LC50 of 0.002 ug/bee and an oral LD50 of 0.009 ug/bee [145].
- Breakdown in soil and groundwater: Abamectin is rapidly degraded in soil. At the soil surface, it is subject to rapid photodegradation, with half-lives of 8 hours to 1 day reported [142,145]. When applied to the soil surface and not shaded, its soil half-life is about 1 week. Under dark, aerobic conditions, the soil half-life was 2 weeks to 2 months [142]. Loss of abamectin from soils is thought to be due to microbial degradation. The rate of degradation was significantly decreased under anaerobic conditions [145]. Because abamectin is nearly insoluble in water and has a strong tendency to bind to soil particles, it is immobile in soil and unlikely to leach or contaminate groundwater [145]. Compounds produced by the degradation of abamectin are also immobile and unlikely to contaminate groundwater [145].
- Breakdown in water: Abamectin is rapidly degraded in water. After initial distribution, its half-life in artificial pond water was 4 days. Its half-life in pond sediment was 2 to 4 weeks [145]. It undergoes rapid photodegradation, with a half-life of 12 hours in water [142]. When tested at pH levels common to surface and groundwater (pH 5, 7, and 9), abamectin did not hydrolyze [145].
- Breakdown in vegetation: Plants do not absorb abamectin from the soil [145]. Abamectin is subject to rapid degradation when present as a thin film, as on treated leaf surfaces. Under laboratory conditions and in the presence of light, its half-life as a thin film was 4 to 6 hours [145].
anwyay, w/e i feel like ive had this converstation with 100 different people lol. to me its insanity to bother worrying about such inconsequential risks, then hop in my big stupid car and go 80 down hwy 59. drink a bunch of coffe and breath houston pollution.
and its not as if neem isnt without risks, it may be almost entirely acutely non toxic to mammles, but there are cases of reproductive harm in pregnant women etc.
Like I said you are welcome to use it. I just like to take all/most of the risk out of it if I can. They used to think DDT and 2-4-5-T was safe at one time as well. Smoking also used to be thought of as harmless. Short term studies on some rats won't convince me to use something as safe.
You have tried to convince me before to forgo organics .... and I will tell you once again ... no thanks!
You have tried to convince me before to forgo organics .... and I will tell you once again ... no thanks!
Azamax has systemic action (used as soil drench), is allowed in organic farming because of the very low toxicity and works great. I'm more than happy to spend some bucks considering that i'm going to eat peppers... Is the closest thing to organic remedies and works way better against aphids in my experience. Everyone is free to disagree, that's only an advice.
Cya
Datil
Cya
Datil
wasnt aware, whats the rates for a soil drench?