hybrid Tabasco Fish cross

F

FloridaChiles

I've recently been trying to pollinate a tabasco pepper flower using pollen from a fish pepper. This exact tabasco plant has happily accepted pollen from numerous other annuum and chinense varieties, but in around ten attempts so far, will not set fruit with fish pollen. Can anyone offer any insight into why this is occurring?
 
I should mention that the fish pepper is itself bearing fruit, and has successfully served as sperm donor to several other peppers in my garden, it just refuses to cross with the tabasco.
 
Being a frutescens, the tabasco will be much more likely both to accept pollination from and produce viable hybrids with chinense versus annuum varieties.  A frutescens/annuum or chinense/annuum pollination is statistically less likely and obtaining viable hybrid seeds in the event of pollination is further less likely.  You're simply operating in a maybe they will, maybe they won't space and some varieties will be more compatible than others.
 
If you are talking about a greenleaf Tabasco... it is actually a complex interspecific hybrid with frutescens and chinense genes both... Keep at it.
 
Yes, this is a Greenleaf Tabasco (I wasn't aware the original variety still existed in any real sense).
 
If I understand CaneDog's answer, I have run up against a prezygotic barrier, and this is just what it looks like when you do that. I think that's neat, and honestly, if all my crosses had fruited I would be very suspicious.
 
I'm not sure if you are telling me to keep at this specific cross, or not, PollenNut, and I guess that's my real question. If I keep doing this cross, is it always going to refuse to fruit, or is it just very unlikely to fruit? And then if it even did fruit, would there be any chance of viable seed?
 
I should mention that at this point in the season this is all academic, and besides, I'm not opposed to bring variegation to my tabascos via a more complicated route.
 
If you're interested, you can find a study here with success rates of various interspecific combinations (among baccatum, annuum, chinense, and frutescence) at surpassing pre and postzygotic barriers, measured as producing fruit with seeds, adults plants, and pollen viable hybrids. To my understanding, chinense are slightly more likely to be successful in crossings with annuum than are frutescens.  Given greanleaf tabasco's significant backcrossing into frutescens, I'd expect it to show a limited amount of an already nominal potential improvement based on its chinense genes.  While genetic differences exist even within given varieties, early indications are probably indicative, though not dispositive, as to future results.
 
That's my take, anyway.  It wouldn't stop me from trying, though :)
 
Thanks CaneDog, but I'm a big enough dork I've already read that one. (I'm an academic myself, but only a hobbyist botanist, and these are my first efforts with crosses.)

I actually do have a question about the academic studies. They report things like "`15% fertility" and I haven't dug in enough to know what that means. I suspect it means that if they say things are 15%, that means that (I'm just tossing out numbers) they did a study and 70% of the experiments were f-ed up by undergrads f-ing up, and of the others, half succeeded.
 
Again, I'm back to my big question: How hard are these prezygotic barriers?
 
FloridaChiles said:
Thanks CaneDog, but I'm a big enough dork I've already read that one.  you and me both ;)  (I'm an academic myself, but only a hobbyist botanist, and these are my first efforts with crosses.)  

I actually do have a question about the academic studies. They report things like "`15% fertility" and I haven't dug in enough to know what that means. I suspect it means that if they say things are 15%, that means that (I'm just tossing out numbers) they did a study and 70% of the experiments were f-ed up by undergrads f-ing up, and of the others, half succeeded.  There aren't really that many studies out there on peppers - at least compared to other crops - and many of them aren't focusing on issues of particular interest to hobbyists.  Plus I've see my fair share of studies that when you really think through the logic of what they did it raises real doubts - or at least a whole lot more questions - about their conclusions. 
 
Again, I'm back to my big question: How hard are these prezygotic barriers?
Click to expand...
 
I like that study because it gives some actual numbers and suggests that even the easier interspecific crosses aren't necessarily all that easy, especially if you're after viable hybrids.  It's far from an exhaustive study though and it wouldn't/doesn't prevent me from trying things myself.
 
As far as passing prezygotic barriers and interspecific hybridization, my take on it is that that the genetic variance within a variety of a species is far less likely to be of a significance that one specimen may fail while another may take, however, with different varieties within a species I'd expect this is much more likely to be the case.  Other factors that might affect having both successes and failures from similar interspecific genetic combinations could be environmental in nature.  Just as a given variety will achieve successful pollination at times and fail at others, perhaps interspecific attempts may be more successful at surpassing prezygotic barriers at times when environmental conditions are more favorable.  Bottom line is if I were interested in a particular interspecific cross I'd certainly try it more than just once, but also recognize that after trying it several times without pollination the odds are probably quite high that it's simply not possible for that specific combination using traditional pollination.
 
Just ideas here.  I enjoy experimenting with hybridizing peppers and have read a fair amount about the specifics of pepper genetics, but it's just a hobby for me too.
 
Thank you as always, CaneDog. I should have mentioned that I've failed with my other tabasco too. I wish I had another fish to try, and I wish I had more fish flowers so I could try the reciprocal cross (but my understanding is that it would be much more likely to take as Tabasco x Fish than the other way round).
 
So like I've said, I've failed 10 times, and I've got 3 more attempts on the plant failing now. I don't think this is taking.
 
I'm perfectly fine with this... I'll walk the variegation through a chinense cross and eventually get it crossed with my tabasco, that's kind of why I picked this hobby in the first place.
 
Ever think about grafting your fish to tabasco and tabasco to fish?
Then using the grafts to fert. each other.
Posts say you like playing around.
Maybe the grafts will give you a genetic edge....
All the grafts I did outside in summer sucked.
Indoors in winter was better-not a high rate,but a couple worked...
My idea is
Strip both plants of all but 2 main branches.
Graft 1 of the 2 branches.Each plant.
If grafts take do cross attempts-Fish to Tabasco,Tabasco to fish,fish graft to tabasco and graft and visa versa.
 
smokemaster said:
Ever think about grafting your fish to tabasco and tabasco to fish?
Then using the grafts to fert. each other.
Posts say you like playing around.
Maybe the grafts will give you a genetic edge....
All the grafts I did outside in summer sucked.
Indoors in winter was better-not a high rate,but a couple worked...
My idea is
Strip both plants of all but 2 main branches.
Graft 1 of the 2 branches.Each plant.
If grafts take do cross attempts-Fish to Tabasco,Tabasco to fish,fish graft to tabasco and graft and visa versa.
Click to expand...
 
This thread is freaking cool, and this idea is really fun. :)
 
If your interest is getting variegated genes into your Greenleaf... there are variegated interspecific Capsicum chinense dominant hybrids out there as well as a few variegated Capsicum chinense to work with. 
 
If your desire is to get a specific variegated gene from an annuum introduced into your line however, you may be better off trying to do so with a cross with Capsicum chinense as your recipient and then breeding your f2 that holds variegation in a homozygous state back to your Capsicum frutescens dominant interspecific hybrid.
 
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