chinense Thinking about breeding two peppers that are both hotter than reapers

I'm curious, if I take pollen from a certain type and pollinate another type, have you seen that the resultant plants tend to be more like the seed parent, or are they random like basic genetics would dictate? I want to cross a chocolate with a red. I can't be sure when I hand pollinate a flower whether it was self pollinated or if the cross worked, so I figured if I got chocolate peppers from a red pepper plant, or the other way around, I could be more sure of the cross. If the cross is truly random, it wouldn't matter which way I cross them, and which pods I collect seeds from.
Another aspect, chocolates seem to be hotter than reds, but they seem to have a more limited use. I would think that a world record red would end up being more popular. Since reapers and the new one were both made from nagas and peppers like that, I would assume that if I bred two peppers that are hotter, and much hotter than reapers there is a good chance at something hotter than any of the HP numbered hybrids. So, if chocolates are hotter than reds of the same type, why haven't we had any world record holding chocolate peppers yet?
 
Whew!  Tom that is a beeeeeeeeeeeg list of Q's.  I'll try and be as systematic as possible working through this.
 
I'm curious, if I take pollen from a certain type and pollinate another type, have you seen that the resultant plants tend to be more like the seed parent, or are they random like basic genetics would dictate?
 
Very good Q!  My experience thus far has shown that seed vs pollen parent definitely has an influence on progeny.  I would strongly recommend starting with line breeding to create a pedigree line that has stable traits.  In essence, creating a homozygous line.  Whilst this is a tedious process it does generate a breeding outcome that is the foundation for further projects.  I don't know of any professional breeder that does not use this modus.  This germplasm is basic building block of their breeding programmes. 
 
If you apply this to something like Petunia or Pelargonium it all makes sense - all the present outputs still rely on those initial breeding lines which are still backcrossed onto more recent additions to provide new recombinations.  It all sounds like a heck of a process (which it is!) but I cannot stress enough the value of going this route as opposed to random outcrosses with heterozygous parents. 
 
The downside is the space needed for evaluation of progeny.  This will however be substantially less than the random method.  Because your parents are line bred they are uniform - therefore there will be a limited number of recombinations available as opposed to heterozygous parents with a broad range of possibility (because the parents are a random combination of dominant and recessive traits).  You can therefore take a random sample of your seed because the chances are very high that you will have all possible combinations present.  From these selections one can further refine the breeding lines to achieve the desired product - either through line breeding or further recombination.
 
I want to cross a chocolate with a red. I can't be sure when I hand pollinate a flower whether it was self pollinated or if the cross worked, so I figured if I got chocolate peppers from a red pepper plant, or the other way around, I could be more sure of the cross. If the cross is truly random, it wouldn't matter which way I cross them, and which pods I collect seeds from.
 
Remove the anthers (before they dehisce) from the seed parent - there is no way it can self then.  Also if you want to 100% sure of parentage I would suggest using one plant as a seed parent only - removes the need for tagging flowers.  Use a young plant and only pollinate the lower-most flowers and remove all the rest until you berries have ripened.  Better to be sytematic and be 100% sure.
Another aspect, chocolates seem to be hotter than reds, but they seem to have a more limited use. I would think that a world record red would end up being more popular. Since reapers and the new one were both made from nagas and peppers like that, I would assume that if I bred two peppers that are hotter, and much hotter than reapers there is a good chance at something hotter than any of the HP numbered hybrids.
 
There is empirical evidence that the progeny cannot be hotter than the parents and any subsequent line breeding attempts will see the progeny aligning to one of the parents' capsicanoid content.   Unless one has hitherto unknown knowledge of gene recombination in Capsicum, the chances of breeding a megahot from a superhot and a non-superhot are unlikely.
 
It therefore makes sense to start with those that are documented to have high capsicanoid content - with a high range where the lowermost readings would be a million plus SHU and the higher random reading spike above 1.6 mil.  I would look at the Alphanerdz Douglah, Moruga Scorpion thingy, CARDI Scorpion (original germplasm available from the NuMex Chile Institute) and BrainStrain proper.  My reason for recommending these and not things like Naga Morich and Bhut Jolokia is that in outcrosses where these were used (Primo, Butlah etc) the heat came from the other parent, they contribute a better flavour/aroma though. 
 
It is a bit more complex than that though - best discussed below.
 
So, if chocolates are hotter than reds of the same type, why haven't we had any world record holding chocolate peppers yet?
 
There are two parts to this answer.
 
Part of the answer lies in the test itself!  Your capsicanoid receptors are very different to the test that is used.  Browns are known to have higher dihydrocapsaicin content than reds. Dihydrocapsaicin is responsible for the deep burning of the throat, palate and back of the tongue.  It is hell fire!  It is really the chemical that makes supers what they are - who can ever forgot Neil @ THSC's videos with the now iconic "Back of ma throat".  However.  Capsaicin itself has by far the highest volume.  Capsaicin is responsible for the dry scratchy irritating burn - typical in frutescens and annuum.  So in essence they test for overall amount of capsicanoids in the berry.  Which does not necessarily equate to what we perceive as heat.  In theory a berry could be mega high in capsaicin and would hurt but not deliver the same burn as one with high dihydrocapsaicin and medium capsaicin. 
 
There could be reason for a someone to propose that a very hot annuum such as Goat's Weed can therefore be used to create a new megahot.  The reasoning being that it has very high capsaicin.  Combine that with something that has very high dihydrocapsaicin (and the others) ans surely you will now arrive at progeny that have a higher overall capsicanoid content and therefore according to the method used you now have a "hotter" chile.  Theoretically (without actually going into the myriad of possible recombinations as well as what is positioned at which locus) it is a possibility.  I seriously doubt it though.  Unless of course as I stated earlier you know exactly which locus controls what and are able to then manipulate these via one of the many biotech methods - we are nowhere near there with Capsicum and I doubt we will ever need to.
 
The second part of the answer relates to the loci ans what is dominant in Capsicum.  It could very well be that red is the dominant colour (which it appears to be) and with that other loci are expressed as dominant.  There is quite obviously another expression that is dominant when brown is the dominant colour - such as the nutty granadilla aroma and high dihydrocapsaicin.  Yet this expression is recessive to the traits expressed by red dominant.  Some of the offspring will be brown - but then they express brown traits.
 
Tom, I reckon if you systematically apply yourself to this (as you have done with everything else you've grown and mastered), you'll crack it.  I have no doubt.
 
RobStar said:
Whew!  Tom that is a beeeeeeeeeeeg list of Q's.  I'll try and be as systematic as possible working through this.
 
I'm curious, if I take pollen from a certain type and pollinate another type, have you seen that the resultant plants tend to be more like the seed parent, or are they random like basic genetics would dictate?
 
Very good Q!  My experience thus far has shown that seed vs pollen parent definitely has an influence on progeny.  I would strongly recommend starting with line breeding to create a pedigree line that has stable traits.  In essence, creating a homozygous line.  Whilst this is a tedious process it does generate a breeding outcome that is the foundation for further projects.  I don't know of any professional breeder that does not use this modus.  This germplasm is basic building block of their breeding programmes. 
 
If you apply this to something like Petunia or Pelargonium it all makes sense - all the present outputs still rely on those initial breeding lines which are still backcrossed onto more recent additions to provide new recombinations.  It all sounds like a heck of a process (which it is!) but I cannot stress enough the value of going this route as opposed to random outcrosses with heterozygous parents. 
 
The downside is the space needed for evaluation of progeny.  This will however be substantially less than the random method.  Because your parents are line bred they are uniform - therefore there will be a limited number of recombinations available as opposed to heterozygous parents with a broad range of possibility (because the parents are a random combination of dominant and recessive traits).  You can therefore take a random sample of your seed because the chances are very high that you will have all possible combinations present.  From these selections one can further refine the breeding lines to achieve the desired product - either through line breeding or further recombination.
 
I want to cross a chocolate with a red. I can't be sure when I hand pollinate a flower whether it was self pollinated or if the cross worked, so I figured if I got chocolate peppers from a red pepper plant, or the other way around, I could be more sure of the cross. If the cross is truly random, it wouldn't matter which way I cross them, and which pods I collect seeds from.
 
Remove the anthers (before they dehisce) from the seed parent - there is no way it can self then.  Also if you want to 100% sure of parentage I would suggest using one plant as a seed parent only - removes the need for tagging flowers.  Use a young plant and only pollinate the lower-most flowers and remove all the rest until you berries have ripened.  Better to be sytematic and be 100% sure.
Another aspect, chocolates seem to be hotter than reds, but they seem to have a more limited use. I would think that a world record red would end up being more popular. Since reapers and the new one were both made from nagas and peppers like that, I would assume that if I bred two peppers that are hotter, and much hotter than reapers there is a good chance at something hotter than any of the HP numbered hybrids.
 
There is empirical evidence that the progeny cannot be hotter than the parents and any subsequent line breeding attempts will see the progeny aligning to one of the parents' capsicanoid content.   Unless one has hitherto unknown knowledge of gene recombination in Capsicum, the chances of breeding a megahot from a superhot and a non-superhot are unlikely.
 
It therefore makes sense to start with those that are documented to have high capsicanoid content - with a high range where the lowermost readings would be a million plus SHU and the higher random reading spike above 1.6 mil.  I would look at the Alphanerdz Douglah, Moruga Scorpion thingy, CARDI Scorpion (original germplasm available from the NuMex Chile Institute) and BrainStrain proper.  My reason for recommending these and not things like Naga Morich and Bhut Jolokia is that in outcrosses where these were used (Primo, Butlah etc) the heat came from the other parent, they contribute a better flavour/aroma though. 
 
It is a bit more complex than that though - best discussed below.
 
So, if chocolates are hotter than reds of the same type, why haven't we had any world record holding chocolate peppers yet?
 
There are two parts to this answer.
 
Part of the answer lies in the test itself!  Your capsicanoid receptors are very different to the test that is used.  Browns are known to have higher dihydrocapsaicin content than reds. Dihydrocapsaicin is responsible for the deep burning of the throat, palate and back of the tongue.  It is hell fire!  It is really the chemical that makes supers what they are - who can ever forgot Neil @ THSC's videos with the now iconic "Back of ma throat".  However.  Capsaicin itself has by far the highest volume.  Capsaicin is responsible for the dry scratchy irritating burn - typical in frutescens and annuum.  So in essence they test for overall amount of capsicanoids in the berry.  Which does not necessarily equate to what we perceive as heat.  In theory a berry could be mega high in capsaicin and would hurt but not deliver the same burn as one with high dihydrocapsaicin and medium capsaicin. 
 
 
Does the test even really take any other capscianoids into account? I thought it was just capsciacin they measured.
 
They test for the whole range of capsicanoids of which capsaicin is just one.  The burn of a chile is the combination of these various chemicals and not just capsaicin - which is the dominant though - accounting for about 69% and dihydrocapsaicin for about 22%.
 
Thanks for some answers. I had heard that the chocolates taste hot but don't have the complex combinations of capsicanoids that get highest ratings. I had also heard that the peppers tend to lean towards the seed parent, even though you should be seeing every combination as possible from both sides if you grow enough seedlings.
I realize that I need to get better on pollination technique. I need to study the anthers and see when they can be seen and when they actually drop pollen.
You mentioned what to expect in breeding that I may not agree with based on what I have heard. From what I have heard, the reaper came from two lower heat peppers. Wasn't one side a naga? And the other side like some sort of habanero? Am I correct that the newly mentioned HP #? that is supposed to be 3M from the same cross, but just turned out much hotter? I'm thinking about crossing a bhutlah with a red Primo, but even crossing a primo with a reaper might come up with a seedling much hotter. I have three other types growing that may be hotter than a reaper as well, but haven't had any pod,ms to test yet. Probably 4 months away still, but I have plenty of time and an all year growing condition. In the mean time I need to work on my pollination.
 
Ah ha, flower mutilation, that makes sense. I knew about removing anthers but when the flowers opened up the anthers are dropping pollen already. Thanks for sending that link. It's amazing how bad you can damage that flower but it still will produce a pod. I see I need to practice that. At least I have a month or two to practice. I have 68 bhutlah plants to test the peppers on to see which ones I want to use for breeding. Tom
 
Have a steady hand and high magnification glasses. The Fatali guide posted above is the standard for crossing.
 
Or go all old timey if you have acres and hope for the best.
 
Still will need isolation for a full breed out of a stable strain.
 
On magnification glasses: I gave up on the normal Walmart 4 x things a while ago.  If you google the term jewelers glasses or jewelers headset you will find some great choices.  A friend who repairs watches gave me the set I use.  Lots of flip down lenses but you can look under them so you have normal vision to locate what you are looking for, then threw the magnification part to do something with it.  Previously, I tried to use those microscope things which took one hand to hold.  Just googled, they are cheap ones on ebay.

Robstar said: "Moruga Scorpion thingy"

I thought I was the only one with that feeling.

 
 
The whole mother plant having a larger basis in the resulting gene pool by the very genetic laws 'Mendel' discovered and founded should prove false, there should be 0% difference on what plant is the parent.. as the initial seed is a perfect 50/50 split in genetics information. The only difference being that one parent plant creates the embryo in which he genetic material is stored.
 
** NOTE - If one or both plants are not homozygous (stable) there can be a mix of the different DNA per seed. (But this is regardless of what the mother plant is)
 
This is why I personally always use the parent plant in this order of preference..
What the mother plant CAN do better.....
 
1) Produce bigger more healthy seeds  (Easier seeds to pop for the resulting F1 cross) eg. Chinense seeds vs Wild seeds
2) Produce more seeds per pod   (It's always nice to have more F1 seeds on hand, nothing worse than 90 days of ripening for 3 seeds) eg. Jalapeno vs Candlelight
3) Ripens quicker.. (I like to know the best time to pick the pod for seed viability and have more F1 pods produced over the season) eg. 7 Pot vs Green Scorpion.
 
However there are some people who believe the mother plant has more input than the donor father.. I, in some way's, believe the individual pod that produces the seed has input into DNA carried to the next generation too...
 
Research by the Chile Institute has shown that whilst your F1 might possibly be of a higher SHU, the subsequent progeny will align with a parent. So not necessarily the same but within a degree of it. So not significaly higher as is purported in the farcical "sweet Habanero x Pakistani Naga" outcross.
 
Back
Top