seeds Tips for Germinating 20-Year Old Seed?

N

NJChilehead

Hi Everyone,

I have a bad habit of holding on to things and I've got myself a bit of a time capsule when it comes to pepper seeds. I have about 18 USDA PI C. chinense varieties that I acquired back in 2004, plus my original Trinidad Scorpion seeds (the ones that were sent to Butch T and the C2C Pepper Company), plus some very old C. pubescens seeds, plus the original TFM scotch bonnet that I got from the Trenton Farm Market (seeds originally collected in '04 but I also have a few from '06). These seeds are so precious, but now I'm interested in trying to germinate them and compare them to what I have. I know that soaking seeds in a 1-2% H2O2 solution and some light surface scarification would be a good idea, but does anyone have any other ideas to boost the chances? They've been stored in a dry, dark place, with relatively cool/room temps. Here are the photos. Let me know if you have tips before I go ahead with them!

Thanks,

Wyanokie

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Hey NJ. That's a heck of a treasure trove you have!
My personal $0.02 is that scarification is unnecessary for those and I'd go a little lower on the H2O2 concentration (perhaps 1:4 or 1:5 using 3% H2O2). I think focusing on the fundamentals of proper starting media composition, germination temperature, and maintaining proper moisture levels during germination is probably the most important thing. Also, I wouldn't attempt any special techniques used with super old seeds, such as supplementing sugars and what not.

It would be great to see you have good success with those.
 
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+1 to what Canedog wrote☝️ To maximize my chances of getting sprouts, I think I would use an inert planting medium like rockwool. I have absolutely no experience with it (nor with hydroponics), but since these old seeds could take a while to germinate, I think that using a sterile medium would help avoid potential mold issues over time. A heat mat connected to a temperature controller programmed at 29°C should also help maintain optimal conditions.

I really hope you can bring some of these forgotten gems back to life; best of luck and keep us posted!
 
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Thank you, everyone, for the advice and good wishes!

@CaneDog @Bou I've been using Happy Frog soil for seed starting, because it's a perfect consistency and it has the myco and beneficial microorganisms to support the growth once it germinates. I don't use seed starting soils anymore because the ones that I used became too hydrophobic too quickly and I want to avoid that. Any reason to avoid Happy Frog? Also over the years I've started pepper seeds in paper towels as @Karpasruuti had mentioned, but occasionally I get mold issues with them if they're left in the paper towel too long, so I'm hesitant to use that method for these very old seeds. I feel like I can control temperature better with the paper towel, one reason why I like it, but don't want to lose the seeds.
 
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Sorry, I can't help you here as I've never used Frog products. I'm mostly using Bio Terra Plus for germination but had good results with Promix organic too...
 
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NJChilehead said:
Thank you, everyone, for the advice and good wishes!

@CaneDog @Bou I've been using Happy Frog soil for seed starting, because it's a perfect consistency and it has the myco and beneficial microorganisms to support the growth once it germinates. I don't use seed starting soils anymore because the ones that I used became too hydrophobic too quickly and I want to avoid that. Any reason to avoid Happy Frog? Also over the years I've started pepper seeds in paper towels as @Karpasruuti had mentioned, but occasionally I get mold issues with them if they're left in the paper towel too long, so I'm hesitant to use that method for these very old seeds. I feel like I can control temperature better with the paper towel, one reason why I like it, but don't want to lose the seeds.
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It always gets problematic when germination time is over two weeks. You can try with a few seeds first. What is Happy Frog soil? Is it compost soil?
 
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I think there's two considerations when using container mix for starting seeds. One is that fortified mediums can have an inhibitive effect on germination and development of young seedlings and, while something like myco may be great to establish early, to my knowledge, none of the additives help germination in any way. My understanding is that Happy Frog is a reasonably strongly fortified mix as far as container mixes go, so my take is I'd hold off on it until transplant into a new container once the sprout had developed some true leaves. Even then, I know some people use it 50/50 with other, less fortified mixes.

The other consideration is pathogens. I suspect HF is safer in that regard than many potting mixes (especially the one's left outside at the stores), but a sterile or purely inert medium is likely the safer bet. Bou mentions rockwool, which has positives in that it should be essentially pathogen-free initially, has no organic matter to support pathogen growth, and supports optimal-range moisture levels if managed properly. I don't use rockwool often, instead I typically use Miracle Grow's seed starting potting mix I get at Home Depot, which is mostly just high grade peat. Karpasruuti mentions the paper towel/scottex method, which is also inert/sterile and gives you the benefit of being able to check on the seeds and see what's happening sooner. It's not my favorite method because of the extra step of transferring the seeds after the radicle shows, but if I had enough seeds I'd sure consider doing a few this way just to be able to see what's happening. It can be frustrating to be waiting weeks for seeds to germinate and not have any idea what might - or might not - be happening under the surface.

I think the key with older and slower seeds is to do everything best right from the start to get the seeds to sprout, then transition into other considerations (like supplementation) only after the sprouts are reasonably developed. If I have fresh seeds that I know will sprout quickly, e.g., easy annuums, I don't worry all that much about my germination conditions and will totally get lazy at times and sprout them in container soil. But as Karpasruuti points out, if the seeds are going to take longer that provides plenty of time for problems like molds and such to develop and interfere with germination.
 
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Karpasruuti said:
It always gets problematic when germination time is over two weeks. You can try with a few seeds first. What is Happy Frog soil? Is it compost soil?
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Hi @Karpasruuti . Here's a link to a description of it, which also lists the ingredients: https://www.groworganic.com/products/happy-frog-potting-soil-2-cu-ft-from-foxfarm
CaneDog said:
I think there's two considerations when using container mix for starting seeds. One is that fortified mediums can have an inhibitive effect on germination and development of young seedlings and, while something like myco may be great to establish early, to my knowledge, none of the additives help germination in any way. My understanding is that Happy Frog is a reasonably strongly fortified mix as far as container mixes go, so my take is I'd hold off on it until transplant into a new container once the sprout had developed some true leaves. Even then, I know some people use it 50/50 with other, less fortified mixes.

The other consideration is pathogens. I suspect HF is safer in that regard than many potting mixes (especially the one's left outside at the stores), but a sterile or purely inert medium is likely the safer bet. Bou mentions rockwool, which has positives in that it should be essentially pathogen-free initially, has no organic matter to support pathogen growth, and supports optimal-range moisture levels if managed properly. I don't use rockwool often, instead I typically use Miracle Grow's seed starting potting mix I get at Home Depot, which is mostly just high grade peat. Karpasruuti mentions the paper towel/scottex method, which is also inert/sterile and gives you the benefit of being able to check on the seeds and see what's happening sooner. It's not my favorite method because of the extra step of transferring the seeds after the radicle shows, but if I had enough seeds I'd sure consider doing a few this way just to be able to see what's happening. It can be frustrating to be waiting weeks for seeds to germinate and not have any idea what might - or might not - be happening under the surface.

I think the key with older and slower seeds is to do everything best right from the start to get the seeds to sprout, then transition into other considerations (like supplementation) only after the sprouts are reasonably developed. If I have fresh seeds that I know will sprout quickly, e.g., easy annuums, I don't worry all that much about my germination conditions and will totally get lazy at times and sprout them in container soil. But as Karpasruuti points out, if the seeds are going to take longer that provides plenty of time for problems like molds and such to develop and interfere with germination.
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@CaneDog this is a good point about the fortification. I also have Promix HP, which I could mix with some straight peat (I have good quality Canadian peat moss) but I don't know if that would bring the pH too low if I just used straight peat. I do like the paper towel method, but find that mold is a problem after a while. Should I go the promix + peat way, or go in the direction of the paper towel? If you suggest the paper towel, what can I do to sterilize it beforehand?

Many thanks again to you all. I've been growing for many years but am currently nervous about losing this batch of seed forever!
 
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NJChilehead said:
Hi @Karpasruuti . Here's a link to a description of it, which also lists the ingredients: https://www.groworganic.com/products/happy-frog-potting-soil-2-cu-ft-from-foxfarm


@CaneDog this is a good point about the fortification. I also have Promix HP, which I could mix with some straight peat (I have good quality Canadian peat moss) but I don't know if that would bring the pH too low if I just used straight peat. I do like the paper towel method, but find that mold is a problem after a while. Should I go the promix + peat way, or go in the direction of the paper towel? If you suggest the paper towel, what can I do to sterilize it beforehand?

Many thanks again to you all. I've been growing for many years but am currently nervous about losing this batch of seed forever!
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Man, I know how it is to be nervous about getting precious seeds to sprout! Myself, I'd go with the peat and promix option over scottex, but see more below.

I haven't ever done any prep work to sanitize the paper towel or baggies/containers for scottex - though I have had mold show up before as you've experienced. Another challenge with the scottex method is maintaining proper moisture levels - not over-wetting them and not letting them dry out. Those become challenges as the length of time needed for germination increases and I don't think of scottex as a preferred method for longer germination times. It might give you a glimpse into what's happening though, if you don't think it would be a potential waste of seeds.

I wouldn't be concerned with the acidity of the peat moss, but I would be concerned with the grade of peat moss used. With pH, a major consideration is providing a range that facilitates / doesn't interfere with nutrient uptake. That's not an issue for germination and very small seedlings. There's even debate over whether peat needs pH adjustment. Peat moss comes in grades though, which relates to how big/long/coarse the particles are and how much peat "powder" is in the mix.

If you want optimal conditions, I highly recommend getting the MG starter mix I linked up above as it's cheap - about $7 - and the peat grading is optimized for seed starting (or rockwool, of course). When I've used other peat for seed starting I haven't seen the same level of results, most likely due to the air/water balance not being ideal or the peat powder suffocating the seeds. If you want to go promix and peat, you could still get solid results, you just might not be doing everything you could do to optimize. I'd check your peat first and if it has a lot of powdery peat in it, but still plenty of longer fibers, I might try rinsing it through a colander or sieve to remove much of the powder before mixing the remainder with the promix. That power can really choke things like seeds and roots. If it's not powdery that's good, as the bigger, longer fibers help loosen and aerate the soil mix.

I really hope this goes well for you! There's plenty of old varieties from years back that I wish I still had.
 
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CaneDog said:
Man, I know how it is to be nervous about getting precious seeds to sprout! Myself, I'd go with the peat and promix option over scottex, but see more below.

I haven't ever done any prep work to sanitize the paper towel or baggies/containers for scottex - though I have had mold show up before as you've experienced. Another challenge with the scottex method is maintaining proper moisture levels - not over-wetting them and not letting them dry out. Those become challenges as the length of time needed for germination increases and I don't think of scottex as a preferred method for longer germination times. It might give you a glimpse into what's happening though, if you don't think it would be a potential waste of seeds.

I wouldn't be concerned with the acidity of the peat moss, but I would be concerned with the grade of peat moss used. With pH, a major consideration is providing a range that facilitates / doesn't interfere with nutrient uptake. That's not an issue for germination and very small seedlings. There's even debate over whether peat needs pH adjustment. Peat moss comes in grades though, which relates to how big/long/coarse the particles are and how much peat "powder" is in the mix.

If you want optimal conditions, I highly recommend getting the MG starter mix I linked up above as it's cheap - about $7 - and the peat grading is optimized for seed starting (or rockwool, of course). When I've used other peat for seed starting I haven't seen the same level of results, most likely due to the air/water balance not being ideal or the peat powder suffocating the seeds. If you want to go promix and peat, you could still get solid results, you just might not be doing everything you could do to optimize. I'd check your peat first and if it has a lot of powdery peat in it, but still plenty of longer fibers, I might try rinsing it through a colander or sieve to remove much of the powder before mixing the remainder with the promix. That power can really choke things like seeds and roots. If it's not powdery that's good, as the bigger, longer fibers help loosen and aerate the soil mix.

I really hope this goes well for you! There's plenty of old varieties from years back that I wish I still had.
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Great advice once again! Yes my gut just tells me to avoid the paper towels because of past issues with mold. I grow carnivorous plants and have some Hoffman peat that I can run through a colander to get the finest particles out, now I have to figure out what ratio of promix to peat to use, and I'm off.
 
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@CaneDog @Marturo @Bou @Tinkerbelle @Karpasruuti I started the process today. I started by boiling some water and creating approximately 1:10 ratio of hydrogen peroxide to water solution. Some bowls were washed thoroughly with soap and hot water, the solution was put into the bowls, and the seeds were added to be soaked for 24-48 hours. I opted to do the original Trinidad Scorpion and original Scotch Bonnet TFM seeds since I have more recent seed as a backup. I'm going to go the paper towel route, I'll saturate the paper towels and microwave them to steaming hot, squeeze out water to the desired dampness, and put the seeds in there with clean tweezers and quickly seal in bags. It won't be completely sterile but I'll get close. Wish me luck!
 
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