Trying to figure how just how it is I'm killing these two.

[Hawaiianero]

As you can see there are as many different ways to fix your problem as there are members of THP.
It took a few posts but I finally saw a reference to PH. This, in my opinion is why one way works better than another for people in different areas.
Most people use tap water or garden hose water and PH varies a lot from region to region. Just because you have the nutrients in the planting medium doesn't mean the plants will get it. Typically a PH between 6 and 7 are a good starting point and anything out of that range will cause certain nutrients to lock up and not allow the roots to absorb them. Others here have more experience and exact numbers on the subject but I've found by using this as a guideline my plants seem pretty happy.
 
Best of luck to you

 

[Dave2000]

I have no problem with peat. Perhaps those getting too much compaction are over watering. I do not depend on holes at the bottom of a container. Of course my containers have them but if there's any water coming out with peat you may be watering multiple times as much as needed. I should mention that I mix in some soil from the prior year's grow for better wetting, as I've seen people use straight peat then when it pools on top they just keep adding excess water as if more is the answer.

Peat does break down faster and due to this, you need to add more nitrogen, but if you maintain the right moisture content the plants roots should have grown, be extended and suspend the peat mix before it has a chance to compact excessively.

 

[solid7]

I have no problem with peat. Perhaps those getting too much compaction are over watering.

If that's for me, I don't think so. The age old rule for peat, is to water your mix when potting, until no more settling occurs. It's what happens after that, which I refer to. Peat degrades MUCH faster than coco coir. This is well understood. Decaying matter of any sort reduces the air holding capacity of the substrate. We go to great lengths to build or buy potting mixes with a proper structure for optimum root growth. Why negate that aspect with oversimplistic statements, which pertain only to your own experience?

This doesn't affect you in Cincinnati, Ohio. Come to Florida, where microbial activity is unhalted 365 days per year, and watch how much faster a potting mix degrades with peat vs coco. I don't choose something just because it sounds cool, or it's what all the cool green thumbs are doing.

I mean, I've used peat. Lots of it. I wish it was more durable, because it's got certain benefits. (like humic acids) But it isn't the better choice for me, and the other isn't a bad choice for the OP.

 

[Blister]

That was my point, exactly. It's a fine line you walk when you get into certain types of media. There is black and white, and then there are shades of gray. Sub Irrigated containers are "technically" considered wick hydroponics. But it's confusing to tell a container grower to treat something as hydroponic - especially if they are leaning towards being noobish. It's understood if you've grown both ways. I believe it's much better to just treat the coco coir as a viable substrate in its own rite - because it very much is. It's versatile enough to be used for hydro.I am trying to gain access to my photobucket account. I'd very much like to post a pic that shows straight coco growing a very healthy tomato plant, with nothing but the addition of organic fertilizer. I don't take many photos, but I did manage to snap this one...

There's nothing inherently confusing about telling people to treat something as hydroponic when growing with coir; especially given the definition of hydroponics - the process of growing plants in sand, gravel, or liquid, with added nutrients but without soil. Since coir is not soil, it falls under the general umbrella of hydroponics. Is it strictly hydroponics? Not really, there's grey areas as you mentioned, but we don't need to get into all the technical details with a noob for fear of adding confusion.

On that note, I would say that the tangent you went off on adds far more confusion to the new grower than anything else posted here. Especially when you started pointing to nutrient delivery methods - wicking hydro, drain to waste - as opposed to what hydroponics actually is. I'd also add that the OP didn't have enough time to ask for clarity on anything before you went off on your tangent.

Had the OP been afforded a bit of time to ask for clarity and provide info as to which direction he was going (soil or coir) I would have been able to provide simple advise of:

Root zone medium - 100% coco

Nutrient solution:

4L Reverse Osmosis water
6ml - General Hydroponics Micro
9ml- General Hydroponics Bloom
PH - 5.8

Feed with every watering.

In my mind it's perfect for the container grower new to coir because it does not get any simpler or more straight forward than that. I also have more than ample photographic evidence to show that this method is simple to follow and that it works effectively.

And for the record, I have not, nor have I ever stated that you NEED to do it this way or that it's the only way.

Neil

 

[Dave2000]

If that's for me, I don't think so. The age old rule for peat, is to water your mix when potting, until no more settling occurs. It's what happens after that, which I refer to. Peat degrades MUCH faster than coco coir. This is well understood. Decaying matter of any sort reduces the air holding capacity of the substrate. We go to great lengths to build or buy potting mixes with a proper structure for optimum root growth. Why negate that aspect with oversimplistic statements, which pertain only to your own experience?

This doesn't affect you in Cincinnati, Ohio. Come to Florida, where microbial activity is unhalted 365 days per year, and watch how much faster a potting mix degrades with peat vs coco. I don't choose something just because it sounds cool, or it's what all the cool green thumbs are doing.

I mean, I've used peat. Lots of it. I wish it was more durable, because it's got certain benefits. (like humic acids) But it isn't the better choice for me, and the other isn't a bad choice for the OP.

I should clarify that I mean sphagnum peat moss, not true "peat", and we're talking about different things, long term vs plant starting.

However you can't just state something is an old rule then imply you must do that, then claim that causes a problem, when you have the alternative of not doing that which causes a problem.

It is well understood that peat moss is a starting medium, not what one should use as the sole or high % in lieu of soil for longer than it takes to get a plant to the first repot. It's not potting soil (by itself). You are apparently overwatering if you tried to use it in that fashion, because as I mentioned the roots suspend the peat moss. It holds air fine if you use it correctly. It just doesn't have the nutrients to be a singular source for plants.

As far as breaking down, that's EXACTLY what I want peat moss to do. Peat humus is good for soil. My native soil, even being higher clay, mixed with it, (along with everything else that I compost) results in a very well aerated soil suspended by the plant roots. It literally bounces up and down like a sponge.

You may perceive your microbial activity to be higher in Florida but in some ways it isn't, because it can get too hot on top, sandy soil that drains and dries out fast compared to the higher clay soil here, with sand being as resistant as it gets to bacteria, so a fine textured substance like peat moss can decay at a similar rate here once past the cooler months of spring, and be completely decomposed by end of season if not sooner. That's not too fast and that's not a bad thing.

It seems the key element in all this is not to over water. I will grant that this may be harder to resist doing in a hotter climate, though it does reach 100F here in the summer at time and weeks of 90's, or if the pots are smaller so you're trying to make it until the next chance to water, which is a good sign a bigger pot has benefits.

 

[queequeg152]

I mean, I've used peat. Lots of it. I wish it was more durable, because it's got certain benefits. (like humic acids) But it isn't the better choice for me, and the other isn't a bad choice for the OP.

 
how much are you paying for coir? 
 
im going BACK to peat because this shit is gone from like 12 bucks for a legit 2.5 cubic foot, to 16 bucks for 1.5 cubic foot.

 

[CAPCOM]

Based on what, exactly? My personal experience using coir.

I've started hundreds of plants with it, no problem. (it's an ideal seed starting medium - especially since it can be bottom watered - wicking) I've even grown some plants to full maturity in it - again, no problem.

There has to be more to a lack of recommendation, than just because you say so. Why? I make recommendations based on what I know or my experience good or bad on the subject. I never said coir was bad, I just said I would never recommend it.

Brush the dirt off the coir is an OK suggestion, but exposing a rootball on a plant that young, you might as well just start over. It is no different that removing a cloned plant from the cloner. The combination of a good growing mix and the mykos and proper care thereafter will provide more roots than he will know what to do with.

 

[Brocoli]

 

Brush the dirt off the coir is an OK suggestion, but exposing a rootball on a plant that young, you might as well just start over. It is no different that removing a cloned plant from the cloner. The combination of a good growing mix and the mykos and proper care thereafter will provide more roots than he will know what to do with.

 

 
This^. Also cuttings have no roots and it grows.. just keep it moist and itll be fine. Infact, itll probably explode with growth after it gets settled into a better root environment. Plus, if you have a young plant with a root ball that just needs to be repotted into better soil, youre still weeks ahead, including recovery time, than from starting from seed again.

 

[solid7]

However you can't just state something is an old rule then imply you must do that, then claim that causes a problem, when you have the alternative of not doing that which causes a problem.

I don't know what you're on about, and I'm not sure if you do, either. The "age old rule" that I spoke of, was just to point out that I'm not such a humongous dumbass that I don't know the difference between overwatering, and settling of a medium over time due to its actual disappearance from existence.

You are apparently overwatering if you tried to use it in that fashion, because as I mentioned the roots suspend the peat moss. It holds air fine if you use it correctly. It just doesn't have the nutrients to be a singular source for plants.

Just stop, already. You are going the wrong direction. You're confused, and you're confusing me with your confusion!

As far as breaking down, that's EXACTLY what I want peat moss to do. Peat humus is good for soil.

OK. FINE. I keep mine in the same pots for years on end, so this isn't desirable for me. Make your own choices. My issue was with those who were villainizing the coco coir.

You may perceive your microbial activity to be higher in Florida but in some ways it isn't, because

Because it is. Decomposition of biomasses occurs more rapidly as one approaches the tropics. Not just due to day-to-day temperature, but also due to the
length of the season. Forget about sand and deserts. We are artifically creating the conditions for microbial decay. If we leave compost piles out in both of our yards, in 12 months, mine will be farther advanced than yours, as my microbes will not have as many days off work as yours. FACT.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/009/a0100e/a0100e06.htm

how much are you paying for coir? 
 
im going BACK to peat because this shit is gone from like 12 bucks for a legit 2.5 cubic foot, to 16 bucks for 1.5 cubic foot.

I buy the compressed blocks. Last time I bought a few, it was $9 for 2.5 cu ft. I've seen it online for cheaper than that. I've never messed with the bagged stuff.

 

[queequeg152]

Because it is. Decomposition of biomasses occurs more rapidly as one approaches the tropics. Not just due to day-to-day temperature, but also due to the
length of the season. Forget about sand and deserts. We are artifically creating the conditions for microbial decay. If we leave compost piles out in both of our yards, in 12 months, mine will be farther advanced than yours, as my microbes will not have as many days off work as yours. FACT.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/009/a0100e/a0100e06.htm

I buy the compressed blocks. Last time I bought a few, it was $9 for 2.5 cu ft. I've seen it online for cheaper than that. I've never messed with the bagged stuff.

i buy compressed blocks too. and they are 16 bucks here... and they no longer expand out to 2.5 cubic feet. the last batch i bought were almost 100% fine coir dust. fantastic for propigating or seed starting... not so much for mature plant growth though.

where are you buying? i only find coir at hydro stores? maby im missing something?


also... moisture content has alot to do with decomposition rates too fwiw. when i chop down a plant i leave the rootball+plastic container out in the sun to bake dry then haul them into contractor trash bags. did this for coir not peat.

 

[solid7]

It is no different that removing a cloned plant from the cloner. The combination of a good growing mix and the mykos and proper care thereafter will provide more roots than he will know what to do with. [/color]

Except that it IS entirely different, because a plant that is removed from the cloner is optimally healthy, not sick, as the one the OP posted. And there is no reason to remove anything but the soil, which most likely hasn't even had root penetration yet, anyway.

 

[solid7]

i buy compressed blocks too. and they are 16 bucks here... and they no longer expand out to 2.5 cubic feet. the last batch i bought were almost 100% fine coir dust. fantastic for propigating or seed starting... not so much for mature plant growth though.

where are you buying? i only find coir at hydro stores? maby im missing something?

I mostly buy at a local nursery. The local hydro shop pushes the bagged stuff, and that IS expensive.

Do a Google search for "coco coir 5kg". It's a mixed bag, but there's lots for under $10. Try Amazon, you might find some with free shipping.

 

[queequeg152]

ive seen the cheap stuff online, problem is its always like 15 bucks shipping. the "free" shipping on amazon just has the shipping rolled into the price, believe me ive checked.

 

[Fitsea]

Y'all, I'm not growing in coir. I started in coir, moved the whole kit n kaboodle to dirt, but not potting soil. Looks like I didn't realize that garden solid didn't have the nutes that potting soil does. Will chop up some MG sticks and toss them in


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dave2000]

 

Just stop, already. You are going the wrong direction. You're confused, and you're confusing me with your confusion!

I'm not at all confused. I know where people are going wrong if they think peat decomposes too rapidly to use for the purpose of soil structure in the *first pot* a sprout is in.

Decomposition of biomasses occurs more rapidly as one approaches the tropics. Not just due to day-to-day temperature, but also due to the length of the season. Forget about sand and deserts. We are artifically creating the conditions for microbial decay. If we leave compost piles out in both of our yards, in 12 months, mine will be farther advanced than yours, as my microbes will not have as many days off work as yours. FACT.

Irrelevant. I don't put seedlings in peat in the dead of winter. I put them in it in a temperature controlled 85F environment, then they are moved outside once it warms up there, where there is complete decomposition long before 12 months have passed, so the difference you suggest, just doesn't matter. It's peat moss, not a tree limb. There is no peat moss left to decompose here once winter sets in.

In the end what we have is much simpler than you want to accept. There are those who use peat with success and those who don't. From that it follows that we should consider where those who don't have success are doing something differently. You seem to have a mental block that prevents you from adjusting watering to what is appropriate for peat moss, but instead you imply it's location while there are plenty of people in Florida using peat moss with success.

It's better not to argue with people who have success doing something you can't do. The everything-is-a-problem argument is not as good as the information-for-the-win argument.

Keep in mind that even if the peat moss all magically turned into humus from complete decay the moment you put it in a pot, that is not a problem in itself, unless you are over watering it. Even your dreaded outcome of what would happen, assumes over watering.

There is something you didn't mention which is relevant for outdoor plants. If you are in a location where it rains a lot, it may not be possible (or at least more effort than desirable) to prevent over watering peat. I suggest using it to start plants indoors, not as the majority medium in a re-pot outside.

 

[solid7]

It's better not to argue with people who have success doing something you can't do. The everything-is-a-problem argument is not as good as the information-for-the-win argument.

Oh, you poor tortured, soul. I hope that you find some small comfort in the writing of your misguided theses.

 

ive seen the cheap stuff online, problem is its always like 15 bucks shipping. the "free" shipping on amazon just has the shipping rolled into the price, believe me ive checked.

Sorry to hear that.

Now, this is a little unorthodox, and I know it puts many people off... But often, the people who have the hydroponic gardens - especially the ones who use the "Vertigro" system - give away the coco from their previous crop, for free. Salt buildup would be a problem for them, but if you let it sit in a pile (compost) for a while, it is worth it, for me. Especially if you want to incorporate it into a large container or worm bed.

That probably isn't an option for you if you're growing indoors, but just a thought.

 

[Dave2000]

Oh, you poor tortured, soul.

Yes, it is torture being able to do something correctly then have someone insist it's a problem because they can't... if only you misuse the word torture for something other than its meaning.

 

[solid7]

Yes, it is torture being able to do something correctly then have someone insist it's a problem because they can't... if only you misuse the word torture for something other than its meaning.

Whatever you say, bro. Get that last word...

 

[Dave2000]

^ Pot and kettle? Hopefully you at least took from our exchange that peat moss works if you don't over water. I doubt it, but hey, I'm content doing the impossible either way.

 

[solid7]

You don't read well, because I said that I use both.

But like I said... Get that last word.