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water use citric acid to lower water ph?
- Thread starter pwb
- Start date
I think you are trying to "gild the lily".
In the region of ph 7, precise measurement is difficult because the concentration of ions (H+, OH-) measured is so low. Variation within 6.5 to 7.5 is actually meaningless in most applications. Even if you did accurately adjust to 6.5, it would still drift. Try this: measure the ph of a water sample, then take a straw and blow bubbles in the sample and remeasure.
In the region of ph 7, precise measurement is difficult because the concentration of ions (H+, OH-) measured is so low. Variation within 6.5 to 7.5 is actually meaningless in most applications. Even if you did accurately adjust to 6.5, it would still drift. Try this: measure the ph of a water sample, then take a straw and blow bubbles in the sample and remeasure.
yuuuuup. it will work.
but as an organic weak acid, its going to lower your income more than your ph.
buy a half gallon of HCl. costs like 8 bucks, will last you two life times and then some.
re: ph 7
idk why you think you cant measure neutral solutions.... can you measure 0.000volts? because thats pretty much how ph electrodes work, like a battery.
but as an organic weak acid, its going to lower your income more than your ph.
buy a half gallon of HCl. costs like 8 bucks, will last you two life times and then some.
re: ph 7
idk why you think you cant measure neutral solutions.... can you measure 0.000volts? because thats pretty much how ph electrodes work, like a battery.
[SIZE=10.5pt]My water is almost PH 8, and I have recently discovered that I have a rising soil PH, probably due to my water. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have recently been using citric acid with every watering. Plants are doing great[/SIZE] and I cannot see any negative effects as yet. (infact they are coming back from a sickness and the citric acid is one of things I have been doing that seems to be getting them better)
[SIZE=10.5pt]I would suggest you add some flowers of sulphur to the soil which will lower your soil PH over time, and continue lowering your water PH with citric acid while the sulphur does its job on the soil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I have recently been using citric acid with every watering. Plants are doing great[/SIZE] and I cannot see any negative effects as yet. (infact they are coming back from a sickness and the citric acid is one of things I have been doing that seems to be getting them better)
[SIZE=10.5pt]I would suggest you add some flowers of sulphur to the soil which will lower your soil PH over time, and continue lowering your water PH with citric acid while the sulphur does its job on the soil.[/SIZE]
Citric acid is fine for a pH down. However if you are growing in soil you are best to measure the run off from the pots after watering ... organic soil will buffer pH enough that a neutral pH water shouldn't bother it.
As for people saying its expensive I wonder if they have ever used it? A small sprinkle from my citric acid food grade from the supermarket in 10 litres of water will drop it 1 point at least. This container costs a whole $3 and would last a season .
If you are adding anything to the water like nutes these will add to pH issues ... fish products are often low pH (4-4.5) while seaweed extract is usually 8-9pH
As for people saying its expensive I wonder if they have ever used it? A small sprinkle from my citric acid food grade from the supermarket in 10 litres of water will drop it 1 point at least. This container costs a whole $3 and would last a season .
If you are adding anything to the water like nutes these will add to pH issues ... fish products are often low pH (4-4.5) while seaweed extract is usually 8-9pH
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Smart-2x1-Gallon-Muriatic-Acid-2118-HD/100119310Trippa said:
citric acid is a joke with respect to a strong 'mineral' acid. that was my point.
a gallon of this HCl will lower my moms 25,000 gallon pool from 8ish to 7.4ish. pool is like 500+ mg/l alkalinity at minimum, hardness expressed as carbonate.
any lower and the plaster will get damaged over the years.
so one 10 dollar gallon will lower the ph of 30,0000+ gallons of my 300mg/l ish fertilizer solution.
10 bucks.
queequeg152 said:
Would there be any risk of over loading your plants with chloride with using HCl over a growing season? or are the amounts used insignificant?
I do know that the base of citric acid (citrate) would be readily broken up by the bacteria so there would be no problem with citric acid.
Are you lowering a pools pH or a bucket of waters pH? ....I was not debating what was a stronger acid just that Citric acid in this application is more then adequate. I know which one is easier and safer to use and which one would have less of a detrimental effect on soil biology and microbes ...queequeg152 said:
no. because A chloride is wildly water soluble, IE it will readily wash out of the soil after rains/runoff events.Celtic67 said:
and B because its a fantastically small amount of chloride, as you surmised.
also as you noted, citrate can be metabolized by some microbes. and as we all know from highschool, La'chateliers(sp?) principal dictates that the lost conjugate base will be balanced by the conjugate acid becoming unavailable.
i suspect this effect is farily insignificant tho.
im usually lowering around 30 gallons of highly alkaline water. so yea ill keep my 10 bucks a year or w.e, and use the superior product.Trippa said:
more than adequate? for small scale growers maby, but not for many folks on this forum for sure.
HCl is safe for use in all but the most absurdly inept folks. you really have to get is RIGHT into your eyes to do significant damage to yourself. more over you would have to fail to wash out your eyes for a good period of time. the above referenced acid is like 30ish percent.
concentrated sulfuric or Hcl, is an entirely different story.
ive had it in my mouth( curiosity), on my skin hundred of times(acid washing), on my scalp( accident), in cuts(careless). its a sharply unpleasant tingly sensation that builds to a burning sensation, like hot ants biting your skin.
in the mouth its like sucking on 10 9 volt batteries. its shockingly sour tasting, and unplesent.
ive tasted phosphoric acid tho, and its alot nicer, albeit much weaker, its clean and almost sweet tasing, yet still sharply sour.
its 100% not bad for soil microbes lol. i suppose thats the organic folks go to justification for spenging too much tho.
use what you want.
but dont piss you pants when i correct incorrect information.
but dont piss you pants when i correct incorrect information.
SanPatricio said:I think you are trying to "gild the lily".
In the region of ph 7, precise measurement is difficult because the concentration of ions (H+, OH-) measured is so low. Variation within 6.5 to 7.5 is actually meaningless in most applications. Even if you did accurately adjust to 6.5, it would still drift. Try this: measure the ph of a water sample, then take a straw and blow bubbles in the sample and remeasure.
I concur completely. Unless you have some very sophisticated equipment, you're not going to be able to make a measurement that accurate in soil. top dressing with a handful of peat moss will probably be a better bet.
you seem to think im taking the position that citric acid is cost prohibititve. im not. if you re read my posts, im simply saying, when compared to HCl, it is:Trippa said:
A. a joke, with respect to its stregnth
and B. much cheaper than citric acid. per unit of volume, per unit of weight, any metric you wish to use.
my correcting, was directed at your claim that using HCl to lower ph would some how damage soil microbes.
smallzi said:
im sorry, but its simply not true. any decent ph electrode can take measurements down to the 10th, pretty easily.
true co2 in water will alter ph. If you take a sample from your tap for example, where water has been held under pressure for long periods of time in hydropneumatic tanks etc, you will absolutly see a ph change for like 5 maby even 10 hours if its cold.
most solutions we test however, are not held at pressures such that they get significant amounts of co2 in solution etc.
TRUE it is difficult to measure ph in soil because its a sold/ semisolid/ maby even thioxytropic. adding distilled water untill runoff is obtained is a good approximation of the soil ph, but not super accurate.
i also agree with you that beating ones head out trying to control minor ph swings, adjusting this and that is by in large wholly unnecessary.