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Very small root ball

Had 2 plants that all of a sudden just started to do very bad even as young seedlings.
 
1 was a double that from the very start could never take much sun. Passed that off as it being a baccatum in sFL summer. After an hour or 2 of morning sun it would wilt heavy unlike all its brother baccatums that could take a lot more sun and would recover much faster once in the shade. So, this sickly plant that couldn't take the sun did kind of ok in the shade for months. Grew about 21" high, not bushy, but did set some fruit. Finally one day left it in the sun for a couple hours, it wilted badly and never recovered. Other than that, no other obvious problems, no spots on stems or leafs, no pests, no fungal.
 Pulled them from their containers and saw the smallest root balls as in the pic. These plants/roots had been sitting out for a few days before the pic was taken today.
 
The second plant was almost the same but on a Reaper that just never took off and only got to maybe10" high no flowers or fruit, and another very small root ball.
 
Looked carefully thru those containers media mix(the same light airy mix I use on everything) and could not find any pests at all. Looked at the roots and also nothing there I could see...
 
What causes this very small root ball, can't take the sun, and stunted growth sickly plant when all the basics are right and identical to 40+ other plants doing extremely well..?
 

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Most likely pests that have come and gone.  You know that May and June beetles are a real bitch down here.  (they unfortunately, do not live up to the name that defines them in other hardiness zones)
 
Heavy, but not quite compacted mixes can cause this problem.  Was this one of your bottom watered plants?  
 
The "root" cause - whatever it may be - is that you don't have enough oxygen in the root zone.  Whether it's compacted media, overwater, too small of a container (as in, overheating), or some other factor.
 
I've said it before, and I say it again - Baccatum and Annuum can be really tough down here.  Especially if you get something working against you.  You don't have nematodes - I can tell from the pic.  Look for stumps of roots that have been gnawed. (and assuming that you didn't tear the plant out of its planted habitat).  If those things haven't been observed, then we're down to watering and temperature, as the most likely issues.
 
solid7 said:
Most likely pests that have come and gone.  You know that May and June beetles are a real bitch down here.  (they unfortunately, do not live up to the name that defines them in other hardiness zones)
 
Heavy, but not quite compacted mixes can cause this problem.  Was this one of your bottom watered plants?  
Tried both ways to water for months on the baccatum, nothing helped. Media did not seem compacted at all. Media hadn't been watered in probably a week before I removed it from container, chalking it up to a total loss. Media was not dry but slightly moist to the touch after no water and in the shade for a least a week. Both were in your reco of light airy peat based mix 7/2/1 etc.
 
solid7 said:
The "root" cause - whatever it may be - is that you don't have enough oxygen in the root zone.  Whether it's compacted media, overwater, too small of a container (as in, overheating), or some other factor.
 
I've said it before, and I say it again - Baccatum and Annuum can be really tough down here.  Especially if you get something working against you.  You don't have nematodes - I can tell from the pic.  Look for stumps of roots that have been gnawed. (and assuming that you didn't tear the plant out of its planted habitat).  If those things haven't been observed, then we're down to watering and temperature, as the most likely issues.
The bacatum was in a white fabric #5 container, reaper was in a 1 gallon black plastic hydro container.
 
No
 
moruga welder said:
Did you use a root inoculant ?  Did you water them deep ?    
Nope, don't even know what a root inoculant is..?
 Bottom water and top water were tried for months, neither seemed to change anything...
 
Was there anything different about where you placed them? (because it really seems like root zone temp, at this juncture)
 
Remember I told you that I recommend planting in larger containers.  I don't put anything larger than a seedling (up to about 10" height), in anything smaller than a #10.  Those aforementioned varieties, in particular.  It's so very hard to keep roots cool here.  If you are going to stay planted out in smaller containers, you'll need to insulate the container, somehow.
 
That mix is excellent, but it still can't compensate for the issues introduced by environment.  If your plant isn't growing optimally, it won't take up excess moisture.  Plants lose only part of their moisture due to evaporation.  They're actually quite thirsty.  So if they aren't drinking, there's always a problem.
 
acs1 said:
No
 
Nope, don't even know what a root inoculant is..?
 Bottom water and top water were tried for months, neither seemed to change anything...
 

INOCULANTS
Mycorrhizae are nature's soil inoculants, tiny fungal filaments that work symbiotically with plant roots to help them absorb more moisture and nutrients. They also release enzymes which help break down nutrients into forms more easily utilized. Mycorrhizae occur naturally in soil but are often depleted by cultivation, chemical use, compaction or topsoil erosion. Re-introducing them to soil or directly to your plant's roots is easy. Collapse
Other benefits:
• Encourages vigorous root growth
• Reduces transplant shock
• Minimizes need for supplementation by increasing uptake
• Increases drought tolerance

 
 
Adding the mycos won't do a bit of good if the container is boiling.
 
I have this problem, myself, from time to time.  On big plants that do this, they almost always have had their roots gnawed off.  On smaller plants, there is typically an issue with heat or water.
 
solid7 said:
Was there anything different about where you placed them? (because it really seems like root zone temp, at this juncture)
 
Remember I told you that I recommend planting in larger containers.  I don't put anything larger than a seedling (up to about 10" height), in anything smaller than a #10.  Those aforementioned varieties, in particular.  It's so very hard to keep roots cool here.  If you are going to stay planted out in smaller containers, you'll need to insulate the container, somehow.
Ya, I know, you told me, and I have accepted my shortfall there and kick myself for not being able to give my plants what they need. But was extremely happy when Dorian blew threw and my smaller containers were able to be moved by me to inside to weather the storm. Something that would be much more difficult if not impossible with massive plants/containers. Got enough to do preparing for a storm without having to get help to move massive containers inside if I even had the room...
post-15502-0-26220100-1567442926_thumb.jpg

 
That mix is excellent, but it still can't compensate for the issues introduced by environment.  If your plant isn't growing optimally, it won't take up excess moisture.  Plants lose only part of their moisture due to evaporation.  They're actually quite thirsty.  So if they aren't drinking, there's always a problem.
Well all I can say is they were treated exactly like all my very successful 40+ other plants, all their sisters. The little 3 month old plant on the left (in below pic)was its sister from seed from same pod, placed on a rack right next to it till it couldn't even take shaded morning sun.
This pic is one of my baccatum/annum racks in 3 gallon plastic hydro containers and #5 fabric containers all with the 7/2/1 mix. Pic just taken today, plants are all 3-5 months old and fruiting nicely with no problems other than the usual FL pests that regular applications of neem seems to cure.
 

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solid7 said:
Adding the mycos won't do a bit of good if the container is boiling.
 
I have this problem, myself, from time to time.  On big plants that do this, they almost always have had their roots gnawed off.  On smaller plants, there is typically an issue with heat or water.
 
thats why you place a board in front of the container , ,,,    :party:
 
acs1 said:
Well all I can say is they were treated exactly like all my very successful 40+ other plants, all their sisters. The little 3 month old plant on the left (in below pic)was its sister from seed from same pod, placed on a rack right next to it till it couldn't even take shaded morning sun.
This pic is one of my baccatum/annum racks in 3 gallon plastic hydro containers and #5 fabric containers all with the 7/2/1 mix. Pic just taken today, plants are all 3-5 months old and fruiting nicely with no problems other than the usual FL pests that regular applications of neem seems to cure.
I would never keep them on concrete n holds to much heat ,,,  :party:
 
solid7 said:
Adding the mycos won't do a bit of good if the container is boiling.
 
I have this problem, myself, from time to time.  On big plants that do this, they almost always have had their roots gnawed off.  On smaller plants, there is typically an issue with heat or water.
did he say they were boiling ? did I miss this ?
 
acs1 said:
No
 
Nope, don't even know what a root inoculant is..?
 Bottom water and top water were tried for months, neither seemed to change anything...
check out my glogs , I have never had a problem ! I learned from the best , my good ol '96 Strat !     :party:
 
moruga welder said:
INOCULANTS
Mycorrhizae are nature's soil inoculants, tiny fungal filaments that work symbiotically with plant roots to help them absorb more moisture and nutrients. They also release enzymes which help break down nutrients into forms more easily utilized. Mycorrhizae occur naturally in soil but are often depleted by cultivation, chemical use, compaction or topsoil erosion. Re-introducing them to soil or directly to your plant's roots is easy. Collapse
Other benefits:
• Encourages vigorous root growth
• Reduces transplant shock
• Minimizes need for supplementation by increasing uptake
• Increases drought tolerance
 
Thanks for explaining.
 
moruga welder said:
check out my glogs , I have never had a problem ! I learned from the best , my good ol '96 Strat !     :party:
Very nice..!!!

Never added Mycorrhizae, whats the best 1 to get ?, and when is the best time to use it..?
 
moruga welder said:
check out my glogs , I have never had a problem ! I learned from the best , my good ol '96 Strat !     :party:
 
Congratulations to you.  Strat is a fantastic guy.  But you live in Illinois, not Florida.  Have you ever grown anything anywhere else in your life? 
 
I know what it is to grow in the midwest, because I'm native.  It's a frickin' cakewalk compared to growing down here.  Bring your gear down to Florida, and learn from good ol' Solid7.  Take your favorable environmental conditions out of the equation, and let's develop you a pure growing skill set. ;)
 
moruga welder said:
 
thats why you place a bird in front of the container , ,,,    :party:
 
That does literally zero good when the pests are down in the roots.  We both have lots of birds in our gardens, already.
 
moruga welder said:
I would never keep them on concrete n holds to much heat ,,,  :party:
 
did he say they were boiling ? did I miss this ?
 
Our UV index during the summer daily reaches around 14.  Along with uber-mugginess that's almost always something that needs to be recognized, so that one can consider the possibility.  That aside, mycos in almost any summer climate - in smaller containers - is typically a waste of money.  As an alternative, I prefer to use coffee grounds to create mycelial growth.  Same effect, much faster, and more heat tolerant.  If you want to innoculate soil, or media in LARGE containers, or even indoor containers, then yes, absolutely.
 
So no, he didn't say they were boiling.  That was me compelling the narrative.
 
acs1 said:
 
Thanks for explaining.
 
Very nice..!!!

Never added Mycorrhizae, whats the best 1 to get ?, and when is the best time to use it..?
 
you can use it when translating , you can water it in as well ,     :party:
 
solid7 said:
 
Congratulations to you.  Strat is a fantastic guy.  But you live in Illinois, not Florida.  Have you ever grown anything anywhere else in your life? 
 
I know what it is to grow in the midwest, because I'm native.  It's a frickin' cakewalk compared to growing down here.  Bring your gear down to Florida, and learn from good ol' Solid7.  Take your favorable environmental conditions out of the equation, and let's develop you a pure growing skill set. ;)
 
 
That does literally zero good when the pests are down in the roots.  We both have lots of birds in our gardens, already.
 
 
Our UV index during the summer daily reaches around 14.  Along with uber-mugginess that's almost always something that needs to be recognized, so that one can consider the possibility.  That aside, mycos in almost any summer climate - in smaller containers - is typically a waste of money.  As an alternative, I prefer to use coffee grounds to create mycelial growth.  Same effect, much faster, and more heat tolerant.  If you want to innoculate soil, or media in LARGE containers, or even indoor containers, then yes, absolutely.
 
So no, he didn't say they were boiling.  That was me compelling the narrative.
A whole lot of shit talk eh my friend ?  Haven't you been suspended from the club before , for your  smarts comments ? 
First of all I'm not 20 , I'm  56 and raised 6 very successful children , and your favorable conditions here in illinois ,
hasn't existed for quite sometime , I don't give a shit where you live , I have family there , as around the country .
 
Wheres your grow Glogs ?  Mine speak for themselves , I have yet seen yours . 
Bugs , bacteria blight , fungus , pests , animals exist everywhere , 
and none of this shit has to do with using root inoculant , which indeed helps build a very good root base . 
 Show your stuff ,,,     ;)
 
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