White bullet / white haba question

Sluggy

Sluggy

Several websites and seed vendors mention that the White Bullet / White habanero is not easy to grow.  It is said to be a very finnicky strain. 

I can confirm this wholeheartedly : Out of last year's seeds only 5 or 6 out of 10 popped and grew tails. Then, to my horror, one by one of the tiny seedlings perished, although this can most likely be attributed to an aphid infestation. (DAMN those green bastards !)

But also after the aphids problem was taken care of, the sole surviving young plant struggled, and struggled and struggled. For MONTHS. This small and scrawny plant, constantly dropping it's discolored, curled leaves just looked pitiful and was not a happy camper ! I've often thought about putting it out of it's misery by chucking it in the garbage altogether.  

But in retrospect I'm glad I didn't...

Once it was permanently placed in my greenhouse (Which doesn't get all that many hours of sun per day in this Northern European climate, maybe 4 hrs, plus the garden is surrounded by 4 story buildings) it was still struggling for quite a while. 

Then suddenly it got a second wind, and eventually grew into a quite big and healthy looking chilli plant.  Yay ! 

Eventually I picked over a hundred, delicious ivory, firy little jellybeans from it.  These mini chillies taste super awesome and pack a good whomp,. Not super hot but hot.
I made some powder from them that rocks my goofy ass in all 3 dimensions ! 

Took out a bunch of seeds, waited for them to germinate. Together with some Moruga choc seeds. 

Same thing seems to be happening : while the morugas, under the same artificial light, have already grown their 3d set of leaves, the white bullets are still tiny little stems w/o true leaves. 


Begs the Question : why are the White habs so finnicky and slow ? What causes this ? 




 



 
 
Your experience mirrors my own, and I've no idea.  I got about 50% germination rates this year on my Peruvian White Habs, and the seedlings were very fragile.  Two lived to be transplanted into beds, both remained very small - still around 12-14" in height/width at the end of the season.  Yields were nice for such small plants; pulled maybe 50-60 quarter to half inch marble shaped creamy white pods off each plant.  Didn't care for the White Hab's taste all that much - but it had respectable heat.  I ended up using them with Murupi Amarela pods to create a white-ish hot sauce.  Friends loved the sauce, which turned out a lot hotter than I thought it'd be.  I'll likely grow them in containers next year since they are small, rather give the bed space to a larger more prolific plant.  Credit to Nigel for introducing me to the Murupi Amarela via his pod reviews.  Really wonderful plant with excellent peppers.      
 
That's funny, I was also thinking about making a white sauce, with aforementioned white bullets, and Aribibi Gusano / caterpillar pepper. 
 
     I've never grown white habs before, so this may all be bullshit… But, if I'm not mistaken, their mature color is actually yellow. Since folks usually pick them when they're white, their seeds aren't mature yet. This may lead to germination problems and weak, sickly seedlings.
     Next time around, try leaving a few pods on the plants to get really ripe and collect seeds from those.
 
I grew a white Yucatan hab this year and experience was similar to what you described. I had two and gave one away. Both were sickly, and dropping leaves. I planted out the one I kept and it stayed small for a long time.  It really took off later in the season and produced a bunch of pods. The pods on mine went from green to yellow, then turned a pale yellow/off white color.
 
Another thread (regrettably, i can't remember which) had a post which speculated on the fact that the white hab's fruit color is pale. Thus, even professional seed growers, who are conscientiously concerned for seed quality, might not be able to distinguish between fruits that are fully ripe from those that are merely near ripeness.

Think of one of the barely-viable seed embryos as a prematurely-born infant. Even the commonplace stresses of a healthy seedling's environment could be crippling to such a delicate organism.
I've noticed that tomato seedlings that germinated in stressful environments (ie.: too cool or too dry conditions) never flourish as well as those raised under optimal culture. A well-educated man once told me that damage to vascular tissue (sap vessels, like our veins/arteries) hampers growth of new tissue in these circumstances... this hampered growth includes new vascular tissue, leading to an ongoing cycle of cripplement: a self-perpetuating problem. He likened it to a child stricken with Poliomyelitis ('polio').

The tomato sprouts' cripplement can be partially remedied by hilling the stem up to the cotyledons, and, after they atrophy, further up the stem. As new roots form up the stem, they shorten the length of faulty sap vessels between root and leaf. Juvenile pepper stems do not form roots quite as readily as a tomato's, but it should help... I think.

Allowing white hab fruit to fully ripen on your plant, even to 'over-ripeness' --from a culinary perspective, anyway -- might be your best hope for producing reliably viable seed.
I am far from experienced with peppers, and my proposed solutions are somewhat speculative. I hope this helps.

If i may ask: as a newbie, i am having trouble distinguishing between the strains "Yucatan White" and "Peruvian White" habanero. The hype and misinformation of seed merchants' online catalogues truly boggles me with misinformation.
Could someone tell me which one has the most compact growth (approximate height/width), which has the most heat (a Scoville range helps), what the fruit size is on each, and provide any input on flavors?

[Note: Sluggy, if you feel these quuestions will hijack your thread, please advise me... my computer has been set to follow this thread, and i will delete the questions the moment i am aware of your wishes.]
 
I believe the Yucatan White is the hottest of the white habs, and it is on my list for 2015.
 
From my understanding the Yucatan white is less common than the Peruvian White. There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation out there on these two types as they are commonly confused, yet seperate cultivars. Kind of like the Lemon Drop / Aji Lemon confusion as there is misinformation on that pair as well.
 
I understand that both the peruvian and yucatan white are relatively small plants.
 
According to the Refining Fire Chiles website
 
"[Yucatan White] A plant that produces lots of small white pods. This variety is jelly bean shaped and originates from the area of Yucatan in southern Mexico. The heat level is close to the former world record holder Red Savina Habanero and hotter and more flavorful than it's relative in Peru."
 
Someone who has grown both side by side would likely have to provide better answers.
 
You bring some interesting points to the table, mikeg... Thx. 


My seeds were labeled "White bullet" and I got them from a Dutch seed vendor who I know personally and who is very meticulous about keeping strains seperated to prevent cross-pollenation.

My pods looked like this, a little bit smaller, exactly like jellybeans, and definitely ivory white in color. 

Anywhoo, I saved hundreds of seeds and will attempt to grow at least a few dozen plants next season.  If half of them die, there will still be some left. 

Also, I'm secretely hoping some may have cross-pollenated. All the other plants in my little greenhouse were red superhots, which could theoretically make for some real oddball, but cool hybrids. 



20-600x450.jpg
 
i blew through an entire package of peruvian whites with just 1 germination. the seed perished after a few days.
my only attempt at a white bullet was an advertised nursery plant that turned out to be a gold bullet.
i haven't completely been turned off on whites but they have dropped on my want to try list.
 
Sluggy said:
You bring some interesting points to the table, mikeg... Thx. 
My seeds were labeled "White bullet" and I got them from a Dutch seed vendor who I know personally and who is very meticulous about keeping strains seperated to prevent cross-pollenation.
My pods looked like this, a little bit smaller, exactly like jellybeans, and definitely ivory white in color. 
Anywhoo, I saved hundreds of seeds and will attempt to grow at least a few dozen plants next season.  If half of them die, there will still be some left. 
Also, I'm secretely hoping some may have cross-pollenated. All the other plants in my little greenhouse were red superhots, which could theoretically make for some real oddball, but cool hybrids. 
20-600x450.jpg
Click to expand...
Does this seed vendor sell to North America? To Canada? Can you post his name here?
 
Sluggy said:
You bring some interesting points to the table, mikeg... Thx. 
My seeds were labeled "White bullet" and I got them from a Dutch seed vendor who I know personally and who is very meticulous about keeping strains seperated to prevent cross-pollenation.
My pods looked like this, a little bit smaller, exactly like jellybeans, and definitely ivory white in color. 
Anywhoo, I saved hundreds of seeds and will attempt to grow at least a few dozen plants next season.  If half of them die, there will still be some left. 
Also, I'm secretely hoping some may have cross-pollenated. All the other plants in my little greenhouse were red superhots, which could theoretically make for some real oddball, but cool hybrids. 
20-600x450.jpg
Click to expand...
Does the your friend from Holland sell seed to North America? To Canada? Can you post his name?

The idea of a superhot with the compactness and productivity of the plant whose picture you've provided seems a nadir -- perhaps the grail -- of plant genetics... admittedly, quite a task for a diligent breeder.

I've scrutinized Internet entries regarding the genetics of matured/ripened fruit colors in peppers. 3 different genes are involved, thus 8 permutations. Red color at fruit maturity features 3 dominant traits (1 each in the genes C1, C2 and Y); white phenotypes are all recessives (notations are listed as c1, c2 and y).
Your F1 generation hybrids should all be Red. Nice and simple...
The F2s will be a mix of red, orange, yellow and white, possibly with 2 shades of each color. Fun, but complicated.

Permit me to offer you every encouragement. "Any Color You Like" -- it would be an awesome accomplishment, but one that's way above my pay grade (qualifications).
 
Confirming my plants looked and fruited exactly as Sluggy's plants.  Were labeled 'Peruvian White Hab' on the packet I received.
 
EDIT:  My seeds came from a THP member.   :)   Don't have many left so can't spare them, but if there's interest I'll save some next year.
 
i have 0 problem with white hab they are vigourous little grower with smaller leaves / branches than the other big chinenses...
i just germed a tray of them, sprouts up after 7 day germ in sandwich bag, 4 day in pots.
 
i had like 30 seeds, planted 18, had some sprouted leftover i just threw away, about 75% germ rate or so?
 
@mikeg,

His name is Wouter, and he runs a company called "123zaden"  (means "123seeds" in Dutch language). They have a LOT of strains. Something for everyone ! 
Not sure if I break forum rules by posting his company's URL, but you can do the Google thang...My dealings with him have always been 100% positive. 
Wouter's personal facebook page is here :  https://www.facebook.com/W.Midavaine?fref=ts

If things dont't work out I could send you some of my seeds. There's plenty. 

At this stage I'm obviously not sure whether any cross-pollenation occurred, but there is a possibility.

Mendelian genetics is also relevant to my interests.  It's probably a little more complicated than this diagram shows  :) 

We'll have to wait and see. 


403px-Dihybrid_cross.svg.png








 
 
Thank you for this...Your diagram precisely echoes Mendel's original work, wherein only 2 traits -- the peas' yellow/green color and smooth/wrinkled morphology -- were initially considered.
With 3 traits -- the c1, c2, and y genes in pepper color, -- your diagram would confuse the hell out of all of us... i wish i'd had you for a high-school science teacher. My youth would have been far less traumatic.
Nicely illustrated!

There is a thread on this forum that shows the F1 hybrids of a White Hab X Bahamian Goat cross. The fruit color (paler orange) and size (about half the length/width of Bahamian Goat) show incomplete dominance. Alas, fruit shape was that of an overlarge jellybean (but the F2 generation should feature some plants with the BG's lovely form).
Given that these 2 strains exhibit 2 different alleles for dwarfism i'd love to know whether that Forum member has continued with this.

EDIT: I've searched for that thread, and can't find it. If anyone can tell me where it is, please do.

White Habs and red superhots... sounds awesome!
 
Well it's been a while since I went to school :) 

With 3 aleles being responsible for pod color, predicting color ratios in hybrid descendants could become a highly complex matter, indeed. 

To further complicate things : 

If the family line of all the individual descendents (F3, F4 etc,) can be traced back to one single pair of parents, there is a high probability of inbreeding. 

This is a problem, because inbred organisms will exhibit abnormalities, or even deformities. They will become weak, prone to sickness. They might be infertile. 

You will need a bigger gene pool ,and that means crossing several pairs of White Habs with superhots.

Maybe this is why "three-way hybrids" like the Naga Viper are pretty robust and vigorous. 

To my understanding, another way to prevent inbreeding is to cross a descendant with all the desired traits, back with another specimen of the original parent strain that exhibits the same desired traits. 

For instance if you have that one F2 hybrid out of 16 that is white, AND superhot (or at least hotter than a regular white bullet), you could cross this one with a true bred white bullet.

Look at the cat diagram : 
 
if you were to take the original white mama cat with the short tail, and crossed it with the long-tailed white F2 one in the green square, there is a 100 % probability that ALL of their offspring will be white, because the dominant gene for brown fur is completely absent. The first generation after them will be 100 % white fur, and 100% short tail, but 100 % of the first generation will carry the recessive gene for long tail. 

That means the F2 will be  100 % white fur, 25 % having a long tail.  And those are the ones you'll want to keep and cross further. 

As far as I understand it, anyways... I'm no biologist by any means   :D











 
 
I've had no problems growing them, think you might have just had poor quality seed.  I have two main gripes with white habs which are why I no longer grow them.
 
1)  By the time they're truely ripe meaning white instead of yellowish, branches have so many pods that they drag the ground due to the short bushy shape they take on.  That short  height also means they take up more space, have to be spaced further away from other plants to not be shaded by them.
 
2)  Too much work!  If I can cut and deseed one regular sized hab or 4 tiny white ones, I'll go with 1/4th the work.
 
I've made hot sauce with them too and it was a novetly because people don't expect a whitish colored sauce to be hot, but the flavor was nothing special.  You notice citrus undertones more because there's nothing else there to interfere with that except the typical hab taste any of them have.
 
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