fertilizer Why do so many people still use high P fertilizers?

[solid7]

I really have to know...  In the day and age of free information, why do so many people still buy into the myth of high phosphate fertilizers?  When it is well established that no plant known to man uses more P than N or K, why is this done?  I see ridiculous fertilizers posted here, sometimes.  Things that have 3 or 4 times more phosphates than either N or K.  What is the purpose?  Is this just one of those, "that's how we've always done it" type things?  Just a relic of former ignorance?
 
Who really buys into this "veg" and "bloom" propaganda? (the evidence points to a reduction of N for bloom, not an increase in P)

 

[AJ Drew]

I think its like this:

I read really great things about that book.
Where did you read those great things?
On the back cover.

Companies make claims on their products.  People believe them and pass it on.  I am absolutely sure you can see a tremendous difference with different nutrients in container growing.  But when growing more naturally, I think the trick is to recreate nature as much as possible.  Mother Nature knows how fast to decay things and release the proper volume of nutrients.

 

[Hawaiianero]

I think its like this:

I read really great things about that book.
Where did you read those great things?
On the back cover.

Companies make claims on their products.  People believe them and pass it on.  I am absolutely sure you can see a tremendous difference with different nutrients in container growing.  But when growing more naturally, I think the trick is to recreate nature as much as possible.  Mother Nature knows how fast to decay things and release the proper volume of nutrients.

 
Hey, a buddy of mine read that same back cover. I'm gonna get 2 of them so I can read the front and back at the same time, I'll learn twice as much about it.
 
Sad to say AJD but you're way too close to the truth there. I agree with Solid7 about high numbers being ridiculous but there is something to be said about veg and bloom mixtures. I like to start my babies with a mixture containing chicken manure which is higher in N than P and K. Makes for nice green foliage. Once they're established I like to top dress with Rabbit manure which is highest in P. This seems to make the plant stronger. It's been working well for me on all the different things I plant. 
 

 

[stettoman]

I really have to know...  In the day and age of free information, why do so many people still buy into the myth of high phosphate fertilizers?  When it is well established that no plant known to man uses more P than N or K, why is this done?  I see ridiculous fertilizers posted here, sometimes.  Things that have 3 or 4 times more phosphates than either N or K.  What is the purpose?  Is this just one of those, "that's how we've always done it" type things?  Just a relic of former ignorance?
 
Who really buys into this "veg" and "bloom" propaganda? (the evidence points to a reduction of N for bloom, not an increase in P)

 
 
Hmm, this sounds familiar, like in a certain bacaatum thread...
 
This is the fertilizer I used.
 

 
The P is not that much higher, though the K is.
 
Then, the back panel mentions
 

 
You note that the FIRST vegetable mentioned beyond tomatoes is capsicum. In all my years of growing things vegitable I have NEVER ONCE run across a pepper-specific formulation for peppers. This has always been as close as it got: Tomato fertilizer. I've never had bad results with Anaheims, jalapenos, poblanos, serranos or lemon drop. They have always overproduced for me on tomato-specific fertilizer. Like the one above.
 
One problem I have had has been with bell peppers. They'll grow great and lush but set very little fruit, even when planted in the same row as Anaheims. I was told it was too much N. But they received the same fert, dirt and water amounts.
 
I know that the main issue you had with me was the redundant use of a fertilizer at the seedling stage, but then made it clear that you weren't a huge fan of commercial fertilizers, especially fertilizers with nutrient code like the Schultz above.
 
My suggestion is that you herd more growers (and their fertilizer manufacturers) here and commence to learn 'em up.
 
Oh, and whoever markets the first commercial pepper-specific fertilizer may well make a million.

 

[moruga welder]

i have a friend who uses only horse manure in their garden, and just lets them go with that .  They have a bumper crop each year .   just saying     

 

[nzchili]

Why do we have religion when science exists?
 
I think it just comes down to having choices. Businesses like to sell products and people like to have choices. People like to think that their choice is the best choice. Right or wrong.
 
Companies need to differentiate their products enough from one another & their products from the competition in order to sell more.  Otherwise we would be left with the only difference in choices being that one of them is blue and the other is pink.
We all know if that were to happen someone would soon come along and mix things up just to differentiate their product from the competition.
 
Now if we were in some communist place where fert was distributed by the govt, then im sure it would follow the 8.3.6 specification as is the generally accepted all around ideal.
 
I think the real answer to your question is people like to have choices, and companies like to sell things.
I (everyone)  like to think that whatever we bought into is the best sh*t around  . Often we are wrong though. lol 
 
As they say, ignorace is bliss

 

[solid7]

Truth be told, the ratio for most plants - from the perspective of uptake - is exactly the same.  Whether it be tomatoes or roses. Yes, that would eliminate a whole lot of fertilizers.  Maybe it's just like the thinking about automobiles.  If you had standard parts, and they were built for longevity, the auto companies would go broke through lack of sales.

However, I find it odd that I can't buy dishwasher detergent with phosphates, because everyone supposedly cares about the environment -- but I can megadose my lawn with phosphate heavy fertilizer, if I so choose.  That's hypocritical.  Seems like there is a lobby behind that set of ignorance.

I wasn't picking on you, Stettoman.  I actually forgot about that thread.  But I just see all of these ridiculous fertilizer compositions everywhere.  You can actually cause problems by overloading your soil with any macronutrient.  My comment t you was to help a new enthusiastic member.  Hopefully you didn't take it personally.
 

 

[solid7]

i have a friend who uses only horse manure in their garden, and just lets them go with that .  They have a bumper crop each year .   just saying     

 
There is a humongous difference between using organic matter, and intentionally formulating ludicrous fertilizers that are mostly wasteful - and even, possibly, detrimental.
 
I use rabbit shit and seaweed to make my own fertilizer.  (that's one of my formulas)

 

[stettoman]

S-7, we had a good chat in that thread and I learned much. I took nothing personally nor meant any. I-m simply not a horticulturalist and my interest in the more finite mechanisms in gardening are something I hardly thought about, as long as my crops were good. And for all the usual suspects they had been exactly that (except for an occaisional bell crop).

Then a couple things happened--

1) I took the leap into hotter and more tropical peppers, and

2) found this site, chatted with you and a number of folks like you here, and learned that for some things there's an advantage to being better informed.

One point I'd like to make: the box of fertilizer above is over 10 years old and still more than half full. I AM sparing with the stuff, have never burned a plant in my life.....

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

My suggestion is that you herd more growers (and their fertilizer manufacturers) here and commence to learn 'em up.

 
Ain't gonna happen, growers have been out of control for years. Look at dates & ratios lifted from this website....
 

Josh, while my plants are still in the house I just....... **** Lking around for Pam**** use a 10-10-10 Miracle Grow. When I transplant outside I pull off all the buds and all the pods from every plant (over 300 plants this year). Then I hit them heavy with a 30-10-10 and about 2 weeks later when the buds start to form again I hit them with a 10-54-10. It works extrordinarily well for me. Then they just get regular garden Miracle Gro through the drip system once or twice more in the season.

-
 

I don't dabble with different ratios for each stage of growth, so I can't offer help there. Many do, however, and should be able to point you in the right direction.
 
For mature plants, I like to use tomato fertilizer.... 6-18-6

 

. For actual fertilizer, it's 5-15-14 for flowering, and 10-5-14 for growth.

 
 And of course all the help sites with their recommendations:

Understanding NPK Fertilizers  you can revert back to the 3-20-20 fertilizer in order to help this phase of growth.
 
`

 

[queequeg152]

However, I find it odd that I can't buy dishwasher detergent with phosphates, because everyone supposedly cares about the environment -- but I can megadose my lawn with phosphate heavy fertilizer, if I so choose.  That's hypocritical.  Seems like there is a lobby behind that set of ignorance.

use tri sodium phosphate. its still sold as paint prep.

i thought the phosphate shit was down to people thinking it makes their lawn extra extra green. more and more lawn ferts are being sold as low or 0 phosphates though.

 

[stettoman]

use tri sodium phosphate. its still sold as paint prep.

i thought the phosphate shit was down to people thinking it makes their lawn extra extra green. more and more lawn ferts are being sold as low or 0 phosphates though.

Actually TSP is TSP in name only in many states now. MN has a "reasonable facsimile", I go to ND for the real thing.

 
Ain't gonna happen, growers have been out of control for years. Look at dates & ratios lifted from this website....
 
-
 
 
 
 And of course all the help sites with their recommendations:

Understanding NPK Fertilizers  you can revert back to the 3-20-20 fertilizer in order to help this phase of growth.
 
`

Eye opener, that!

 

[Masher]

I think weed growers looking to branch out discover peppers and use the info for weed nutes and apply it to peppers.

N in the beginning npk in the middle and pk during fruiting/flowering.

I read tons of cross over nute ratios applied directly to peppers with disasterous results.

Add in every backyard gardener saw it on youtube or joe dirt made a video and the problem is futher compounded.

My grandfather long time passed grew 6' tall tomato plants, 12 tall corn...his 25 x 70 garden fed every single family on the block.

He used his own composted soil and rabbit shit.

He had an old claw foot tub in the garden....every couple weeks he put a bucket of poo in it, kept it full of water and stirred it with a boat paddle and watered by hand from it.

Amazing results.

 

[solid7]

 
Understanding NPK Fertilizers  you can revert back to the 3-20-20 fertilizer in order to help this phase of growth.
 
`

 
Well, that's one point of view.

And there is this one, from a group of people who raise a plant for aesthetic value - one which is, inarguably, harder to grow than our beginner level crop:
 
http://www.rose.org/phosphorus-fallacies-too-much-of-a-good-thing/
 
Key phrase: "There is no plant that uses more phosphorus than nitrogen and potassium."

 

[solid7]

I think weed growers looking to branch out discover peppers and use the info for weed nutes and apply it to peppers.

N in the beginning npk in the middle and pk during fruiting/flowering.

I read tons of cross over nute ratios applied directly to peppers with disasterous results.

Add in every backyard gardener saw it on youtube or joe dirt made a video and the problem is futher compounded.

My grandfather long time passed grew 6' tall tomato plants, 12 tall corn...his 25 x 70 garden fed every single family on the block.

He used his own composted soil and rabbit shit.

He had an old claw foot tub in the garden....every couple weeks he put a bucket of poo in it, kept it full of water and stirred it with a boat paddle and watered by hand from it.

Amazing results.

 
There are even debates amongst weed growers about this very issue.  Some growers use the same formula throughout, and get just as good, if not better results.  Plus, nutrients are but one issue.  There is the attempt to mimic seasons and cycles through lighting, temperature, and humidity.  All noble prospects, in the pursuit of higher knowledge.  But the phosphate abuse is sheer ignorance.
 
Compost and manure go a long way.  I'm a big fan.  I do still like to use liquid organic nutrients, with light weight media, because I get faster growth.  And for the first time this season, I used a synthetic fertilizer.  But there is nothing bad to be said about the old ways.  Not... a... thing.

 

[queequeg152]

Actually TSP is TSP in name only in many states now. MN has a "reasonable facsimile", I go to ND for the real thing.

Eye opener, that!

 
what is MN & ND?
 
i rely on TSP for cleaning pool filter elements... kinda important to me.  i doubt Texas got rid of phosphates lol... but ill look at the box i have at home when i get a chance.
 

 

[stettoman]

Minnesota is a way far northern county in Texas that most residents leave right around Halloween to hang out in the Brownsville area to harvest grapefruit and practice their Spanish.

Nort Dekoda is a sugarbeet field south of Canuckistan.

 

[solid7]

 
what is MN & ND?
 
i rely on TSP for cleaning pool filter elements... kinda important to me.  i doubt Texas got rid of phosphates lol... but ill look at the box i have at home when i get a chance.
 

 
Most coastal states, or those that sit on major water supplies, have eliminated phosphates in detergents and cleaning products.

Of course, I get that Texas always considered itself "special", so there is a good chance they didn't.

 

[stettoman]

 
Most coastal states, or those that sit on major water supplies, have eliminated phosphates in detergents and cleaning products.
Of course, I get that Texas always considered itself "special", so there is a good chance they didn't.

I spent three years in Wyoming in the late 80s, and the state had the reputation of being the dumping ground for banned chemicals, solvents and paint formulations. If you couldn't find the real deal anywhere else, just head to Cheyenne. There were always a lot of Colorado license plates in the paint store parking lots in Cheyenne.

I'm pretty sure that's all changed by now.

 

[solid7]

Phosphates are also being looked at now in the foods we eat.  There are (slightly more than) anecdotal links to phosphates and certain types of cancer.
 
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/586013
 
That's an old link.  A lot more has come up recently.  But it wasn't meant to be an in-depth discussion on that tangent - just an intro, for those who actually want to follow it up.  Perhaps not coincidentally, I have a friend who is suffering from lung cancer right now.  He has no history of smoking.  However, he spends a lot of days eating on the run - lots of lunch meat, lots of grocery shelf (non-produce) items.  This info was made pertinent to him.

I spent three years in Wyoming in the late 80s, and the state had the reputation of being the dumping ground for banned chemicals, solvents and paint formulations. If you couldn't find the real deal anywhere else, just head to Cheyenne. There were always a lot of Colorado license plates in the paint store parking lots in Cheyenne.

I'm pretty sure that's all changed by now.

 
 
With all of the water dispute issues in Colorado and neighboring states - and the fact that Wyoming sits on part of the Ogallala aquifer - I'd certainly hope that it has.