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seeds Why organic seed?
- Thread starter AJ Drew
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Ill chime in. Its better for the environment and wildlife. Also if someone is using organic methods to grow I would generally think that if your seed is organic it should be adapted to organic growing conditions more so than non organic seeds.
Pepperhead1989 said:
What does that even mean?
There is literally no such thing as adaptation for "organic" vs "non-organic" growing. Nutrients are either delivered to the media in an available or non-available form, but ultimately, they all get taken up the same way. Whether you give the plant the nutrients in a pre-digested form, or your rely on microbes to break it down, the seed knows nothing of this, and has no advantage from a genetics standpoint.
Just a suggestion is allsolid7 said:
solid7 said:
You are thinking of adapting to the application of 'organic' vs 'non-organic' fertilisers. I agree completely that there is no adaptation towards that as the plant takes up the same nutrient in the same way.
What about pests or diseases though? Surely if I grow plants 'organically' and the more susceptible plants die, only the more resistant ones would survive to pass on their genes? Wouldn't this create genetic drift to more resistant plants? I used to grow in this way when I lived in a semi-arid location, after a few years I was able to easily grow some vegetables that my neighbours really struggled with. Unfortunately very few 'organic' growers grow this way and very few seed sellers will put any form of selective pressure on their plants.
Back to the original poster's question. I think that buying organic seeds is a waste of money as the resultant plants will not have any detectable trace of the chemicals. Many 'organic' growers, at least in Australia, use a host of so called 'organic' poisons on their crops. Many of these are very harmful to people, bad for the environment, and are often very persistent, quite often they are more harmful than the substitutable non-organic poisons. Let's face it, we learned of the dangers of rotenone yet did not ban it for many years in Australia as it was the backbone of organic farming.
Saying organic is better for the environment and wildlife is a broad generalization, and isn't rearly true.Pepperhead1989 said:
Many of the pesticides and herbicides that are used in organic practices can be pretty damaging to the environment and animals and they often have to get applied in larger doses and more frequently than their synthetic counterparts. Neem oil for one, is horrible for aquatic life.
solid7 said:
Then why, pray tell, cannot a seed grown with chemical herbicides/pesticides be labelled organic, unless it was grown with organic methods for at least 3 years? The answer is to acclimate the plants to grow in organic conditions. Plants that were grown with petroleum fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides, will produce seeds that, in turn, will grown into plants that are more favorable to conditions its parents grew in. They are less likely to thrive in organic conditions. I would compare it to an addiction... the government says it will take three years to clean its system.
http://seedalliance.org/top_menu_header/faq#importance
But beyond the standard requiring organic seed, there are many benefits to building organic seed systems. For starters, seed varieties bred under organic conditions provide organic farmers with the optimum genetics for their production systems. And organically bred seed provides food processors, companies and retailers with improved traits that organic consumers value, including nutrition, flavor, color, and other quality traits.
But beyond the standard requiring organic seed, there are many benefits to building organic seed systems. For starters, seed varieties bred under organic conditions provide organic farmers with the optimum genetics for their production systems. And organically bred seed provides food processors, companies and retailers with improved traits that organic consumers value, including nutrition, flavor, color, and other quality traits.
That's not really science. It's just one seed seller's claim.
This guy is supposed to be some sort of "expert", and he makes no such claims. He does, however, make mention of GMO - a now recurring topic in this thread. Note: I'm not endorsing what he says, but his unscientific claims are different from the unscientific claims that your link references.
http://www.organicitsworthit.org/learn/organic-seed-expert-phil-winteregg
Since I know that you aren't going to read it, I'll just paraphrase what he says. Basically, he says that seed harvested from conventional crops has minimal residue, which will most likely be diluted out of existence before it matures. (however, he notes importance for sprouted crops like microgreens - OK) Then, he goes on to say that organic seed is generally raised by people who will use organic methods. In other words, it's marketed to a lifestyle. In other words, BULLSHIT.
This guy is supposed to be some sort of "expert", and he makes no such claims. He does, however, make mention of GMO - a now recurring topic in this thread. Note: I'm not endorsing what he says, but his unscientific claims are different from the unscientific claims that your link references.
http://www.organicitsworthit.org/learn/organic-seed-expert-phil-winteregg
Since I know that you aren't going to read it, I'll just paraphrase what he says. Basically, he says that seed harvested from conventional crops has minimal residue, which will most likely be diluted out of existence before it matures. (however, he notes importance for sprouted crops like microgreens - OK) Then, he goes on to say that organic seed is generally raised by people who will use organic methods. In other words, it's marketed to a lifestyle. In other words, BULLSHIT.
I was feeling particularly confrontational today, so I dug up more unscientific debate material.
http://www.gardenmyths.com/organic-seeds-why-buy-them/
And wouldn't you know what I found...
http://www.gardenmyths.com/organic-seeds-why-buy-them/
And wouldn't you know what I found...
The article said:
solid7 said:
Wow, you're looking for an argument. Well, I will fulfill your prophecy by not reading your link, just because you posted that asinine and unnecessary dig.
The funny thing is, even the government, that gave the decree of what 'organic' means, haven't given the difference, reason, or otherwise, about organic seed. The prevailing idea (more than one seed seller's claim) seems to be what I said.
Of course it's marketed to a lifestyle. It's a gimmick... but it is also what IS... just plain old natural food, that is not tampered with. Nature is allowed to run its course, and put in its own defenses and resistances, without help from gene splicers or the like. Healthy plants have their own bug deterrent. That is genetic, as is the reaction from cow poop compost or petroleum ferts. It is my guess that inside that seed, there is either a plant that leans toward flourishing from either natural nourishment or petroleum steroids. Has anyone tried growing seed, that came from petroleum fed parents, without any petroleum based food/fungicide/herbicide, but instead just gave it fish guts or rabbit pellets? Did it resist Japanese beetles or spider mites as well as an organic plant would? I don't use anything for bugs, disease, or weeds; and for the most part, they flourish. Ultimately, I think the goal of the organic/non-organic seed debate is just to Render to industry the things that are industry's; and to God the things that are God's.
solid7 said:
Hate to tell you, but organic was a thing before GMOs were.
'Organic' gardening rarely lets nature do its thing.. just means that 'organic' sprays are used instead of 'harmful commercial' products.Myxlplyk said:
Bio-organic is another story and generally does allow nature to do its thing by treating the entire land used as an organism and avoids any additional chemicals.
Until studies that compare seeds from commercial vs organic seeds growing under organic conditions then I fail to see why people argue either way.
I couldn't agree more. That's why I am not answering any of the stuff that the other guy said in response to the stuff that I said. Because I very clearly predicated the entire pretext of my diatribe, on one VERY SIMPLE fact - and that was, that everything said so far, has been nothing less than UNSCIENTIFIC. There is so much replying and retorting, but I've been honest in mine, and compared unscientific claims to unscientific claims. Which, until analyzed scientifically, are PURE BULLSHIT.Jase4224 said:
"How can it be bullshit to state a preference?"
Any other theories aside, with legit certified organic seed, you're guaranteed no GMO. With "conventional" seed, you have no such guarantees. Now, i'm not trying to convince anyone that GMO pepper seed is a big deal or not. Some folks don't even know what GMO means. Some folks do, but don't give a shit about it; for them, it's not an issue. I know some diehard crunchie-types who think it's the most important issue in the world. Personally, it's no big deal to me, but i'd probably spend a few extra bucks for the organic version, given a choice. If there's no organic option available from a reputable source, though, i'd buy the conventional seed without a second thought.
That's just my preference. Some folks prefer yellow chiles to red ones; that's their preference, and the reasons behind their opinions aren't any more or less "bullshit" than the reasons why paying consumers might choose organic over conventional.
How can it be bullshit to state a preference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVv5sIY57TA
Any other theories aside, with legit certified organic seed, you're guaranteed no GMO. With "conventional" seed, you have no such guarantees. Now, i'm not trying to convince anyone that GMO pepper seed is a big deal or not. Some folks don't even know what GMO means. Some folks do, but don't give a shit about it; for them, it's not an issue. I know some diehard crunchie-types who think it's the most important issue in the world. Personally, it's no big deal to me, but i'd probably spend a few extra bucks for the organic version, given a choice. If there's no organic option available from a reputable source, though, i'd buy the conventional seed without a second thought.
That's just my preference. Some folks prefer yellow chiles to red ones; that's their preference, and the reasons behind their opinions aren't any more or less "bullshit" than the reasons why paying consumers might choose organic over conventional.
How can it be bullshit to state a preference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVv5sIY57TA
Honestly if I could I would like to genetically modified my peppers. I like to make some crazy looking pods by tweaking few DNA strands. That save so much time but I just don't have the technology. However nature does it with ease through random chance and natural selection. I think all our food has been tamper at one point by humans. Watermelons, peppers, bananas ect. So you have to wonder is any of our food even natural. Heck I question if our entire human ancestry is not even natural. Point being it going to happen either by human hands or nature itself. Most plants in the wild kill you if you eat them. However humanity made big strides to alter them. So In my humble opinion it all the same to me. Differences is one tamper by humans directly the other is indirectly by nature. In the end some of us going to like it and the others will have there differences. I think as long every one has the option to choose what they want we can all be happy.
I thought that this topic was going to be a... (snap, snap) conversation stimulator, man!Bicycle808 said:
It's not bullshit to state a preference. Not at all. It's bullshit to make unproven claims, but act authoritative over them. I could give two fucks about what someone wants to make a lifestyle out of - but if you're selling them that lifestyle, then by God, be 100% honest about what they're actually getting.
Yeah it's true that whenever humans or bees cross pollinate plants you are mixing up ALL the DNA so in theory genetically modifying a few genes should be a non issue.. But, I think people draw the line at adding DNA from non related organisms and that seems to scare people off the idea of GMO foods. That and the name 'genetically modified organism' is a bit of a turn off too, especially for the conspiracy theorist types.FrankenPepper said:
Personally I so far have no problem with GMO as long as it's tested thoroughly and produced responsibly. Until I see any genuine evidence (there's a lot of misleading anti GMO out there probably produced by the anti vaccination douche bags also) that it's harmful I won't actively avoid it.
Agreed that people should have the ability to choose.
Agreedsolid7 said:
There are a few things besides GMO that "organic" tends to mean, when buying seed. Mostly, as I think it was stated before, was lack of the antifungal treatment. Usually, you see this as a magenta colored coating on seeds. If you've ever lived or worked on a farm, this is a common sight.
GMO crops generally tend to be altered with the "Roundup resistant" gene. So that farmers can use a non-selective herbicide on their crops. It definitely cuts down work, and expense. But I'd rather not eat food grown and raised that way, personally. You can't always get away from it - if you choose to live amongst proper society in the modern world - so you do the best you can, when you can, knowing that you can't always avoid.
I'm an anti-vaccination douchebag, by the way. There are very few things that vaccinations prevent, that can't be treated IF contracted. I haven't been to a doctor in my adult life, and I'm not going to defend or apologize for my lifestyle, to anyone. If you want to be a pro-vaccination douchebag, then God love you. It's your choice.
GMO crops generally tend to be altered with the "Roundup resistant" gene. So that farmers can use a non-selective herbicide on their crops. It definitely cuts down work, and expense. But I'd rather not eat food grown and raised that way, personally. You can't always get away from it - if you choose to live amongst proper society in the modern world - so you do the best you can, when you can, knowing that you can't always avoid.
I'm an anti-vaccination douchebag, by the way. There are very few things that vaccinations prevent, that can't be treated IF contracted. I haven't been to a doctor in my adult life, and I'm not going to defend or apologize for my lifestyle, to anyone. If you want to be a pro-vaccination douchebag, then God love you. It's your choice.