Wrinkles Leaves Diagnosis Assistance Por Favor

Ragnar · Jun 22, 2014

Ok, so I'm having a few issues. Done a ton of reading and I think
it's either too much ferts (I have a time-release and have been using a
very low dose liquid with a NPK ratio of 3-1-2); a lack of calcium
(however the time-release has Ca in it); or more insect damage -- namely
mites (I have seen little sand-grain sized buggers on the underside of
leaves, they move quick and seem to be able to jump/spring)... I have
been on the lookout for aphids and have found none and from google
photos it doesn't really look like thrip damage. The eaten leaves are from slugs (now all poisoned and gone) and earwigs (grrr I hate these little f**kers - they go straight for the new growth bits).

Opinions welcome!

Phil · Jun 22, 2014

Looks like ferts to me.... especially if the plant hasn't started fruiting yet. Hold off on the ferts until it's fruiting. You put the time release in the soil before the new growth showed up, right? I see normal leaves behind the crinkled new growth.

Ragnar · Jun 22, 2014

Looks like ferts to me.... especially if the plant hasn't started fruiting yet. Hold off on the ferts until it's fruiting. You put the time release in the soil before the new growth showed up, right? I see normal leaves behind the crinkled new growth.

Sorta. Time release was in from the start and I've been using the liquid at 1/8. Plants are now about 4-5x their original size at plant out on may 26. So there has been a lot of new growth, issue is the new new-growth.

I flushed them well today. Very well in fact. Honestly I think it's too much ferts too, just don't want to misdiagnose if it's bugs and let them get a second foot in the door, you know? Already having enough trouble with the damned earwigs.

Phil · Jun 22, 2014

AaronRiot said:
Honestly I think it's too much ferts too, just don't want to misdiagnose if it's bugs and let them get a second foot in the door, you know? Already having enough trouble with the damned earwigs.

Hmmm... I see your dilemma. Hopefully someone can offer a more precise diagnosis for you. Try taking an affected leaf and put it under some kind of magnification, maybe?

Jamison · Jun 22, 2014

Honestly, that looks like bug damage to me. I'm about 99% sure it has nothing to do with your fertz. The rest of the plant looks good to me. I'd trim all the affected leaves off and see what happens with the new growth.

Aaron Sm · Jun 22, 2014

Most of my plants put out wrinkly leaves when I over water. All my plants are in the ground and for me the best way I know when to water is to look for heat stress in the plants. Every time I over water they put out wrinkly leaves and when I don't they go back to normal.

Ragnar · Jun 22, 2014

Honestly, that looks like bug damage to me. I'm about 99% sure it has nothing to do with your fertz. The rest of the plant looks good to me. I'd trim all the affected leaves off and see what happens with the new growth.

Thanks Jamison, I'll give that a go in a couple days when I see them again. Unfortunately two of the three MOAs started from seed you sent me are affected, so I'm really hoping they pull through! The way they've been growing I should see what the post-flush new growth looks like when I get back. Probably will go ahead and pick up Neem and a second option just in case... Figure I'll need it anyway, sooner or later.

Aaron sm - it's definitely not from over-watering... I'm using a very gritty bark mix that is plenty aerated and has no perched water table. I can water in a thunderstorm and be AOK. Thanks for the reply though.

All in all, at this point, everything is still growing strong and budding up so I'm not terribly worried...just annoyed and wanting to solve the issue sooner rather than later.

PepperWhisperer · Jun 22, 2014

I second the diagnosis of insect damage. I had thrips last year and my leaves looked identical to yours. When you examine your plants, look very closely at the smallest new leaves. You may need a magnifying glass. Thrips like to eat the tender new growth and they hide in the tiny crevices of the leaves. Aphids can also produce damage similar to that but are much easier to spot, so I would think you'd have seen them by now if they were a problem. I'm not sure what mite damage looks like, but they are also itty-bitty.

Ragnar · Jun 23, 2014

PepperWhisperer said:
I second the diagnosis of insect damage. I had thrips last year and my leaves looked identical to yours. When you examine your plants, look very closely at the smallest new leaves. You may need a magnifying glass. Thrips like to eat the tender new growth and they hide in the tiny crevices of the leaves. Aphids can also produce damage similar to that but are much easier to spot, so I would think you'd have seen them by now if they were a problem. I'm not sure what mite damage looks like, but they are also itty-bitty.

Thanks for the reply, I will have a look for thrips then as well. I remember reading that putting a layer of sand like a mulch will fend them off the young plants, would this work on a larger scale as well? How did you treat your plants and how successful were you PW?

PepperWhisperer · Jun 23, 2014

It took me a long time to figure out that my problem was thrips. By then, the weather was very hot and the remedies I had discovered at that point were almost as harmful to the plants as the pests. I tried pyrethrin based spray insecticide, which was minimally effective against the thrips and caused some minor damage to my adult plants, and totally killed some seedlings I had started for an overwintering project. I also tried insecticidal oils (neem and canola). Both seemed to be working somewhat, but they were also causing damage to the sprayed areas. The problems were related to the very high daytime temperatures and I knew these were possible side effects, but I was desperate.

My research this year turned up predatory nematodes and predatory mites. If I start seeing thrips again I will be trying out these new methods. There is a thread here recently about the predatory mites and the results looked positive.

Ragnar · Jun 24, 2014

PepperWhisperer said:
It took me a long time to figure out that my problem was thrips. By then, the weather was very hot and the remedies I had discovered at that point were almost as harmful to the plants as the pests. I tried pyrethrin based spray insecticide, which was minimally effective against the thrips and caused some minor damage to my adult plants, and totally killed some seedlings I had started for an overwintering project. I also tried insecticidal oils (neem and canola). Both seemed to be working somewhat, but they were also causing damage to the sprayed areas. The problems were related to the very high daytime temperatures and I knew these were possible side effects, but I was desperate.

My research this year turned up predatory nematodes and predatory mites. If I start seeing thrips again I will be trying out these new methods. There is a thread here recently about the predatory mites and the results looked positive.

I saw the predatory mites thread as well. Looks awesome. They are a bit pricey for my amount of pots and I'd worry about the temperature swings here, too.

For now I went with a two-punch of DE to dust the substrate and a pyrethrin spray for foliage carnage.

Everybody is still growing, even the worst off, so that's good. Hopefully this will set things back on both tracks.

So far I've now seen aphids, earwigs, and slugs that I can identify. There are also little aphid-like critters that are about 1/16 the size of an aphid that I'm assuming are mites of one sort or another. Given that the leaves are not curling downwards and that there is no bronzing I'm hoping they are not broad mites...

Now, if it would only stop raining so I can hurry up and kill 'em all.

Edit: even with this set back I'm quite proud to say I'm way way way ahead of where I was last year, mostly thanks to all the great insight here at THP in the threads and GLOGs. Thanks everyone!

Edit #2 - It cleared up and I sprayed them with pyrethins. Fingers crossed...