health Yellowing on top leaves starting...what's wrong?

[queequeg152]

your dyna gro should have plenty of boron. if you point me to the guaranteed analysis(percentages of chemicals) and net weight and volume for dyna gro i can calculate the nutrient profile you are feeding, from there you should address what is deficient. i feed my plants almost 300mg/l of calcium.

you are growing in straight promix, there is nothing in it that will feed the plants besides what you water into the soil. i run a home made promix, and i feed the bejesus out of my plants basically every single watering. 2 ec, they absolutely love it. i think the general wisdom is to very sparingly feed pepper plants, or they will suffer. i have found that, at least in my instance that's not the case at all, i actually have an aji limon that crys for nitrogen if i water with tap more than once in a row, mind you i dont water to more than 200ml or so of run off.

 

[ballgum]

your dyna gro should have plenty of boron. if you point me to the guaranteed analysis(percentages of chemicals) and net weight and volume for dyna gro i can calculate the nutrient profile you are feeding, from there you should address what is deficient. i feed my plants almost 300mg/l of calcium.

you are growing in straight promix, there is nothing in it that will feed the plants besides what you water into the soil. i run a home made promix, and i feed the bejesus out of my plants basically every single watering. 2 ec, they absolutely love it. i think the general wisdom is to very sparingly feed pepper plants, or they will suffer. i have found that, at least in my instance that's not the case at all, i actually have an aji limon that crys for nitrogen if i water with tap more than once in a row, mind you i dont water to more than 200ml or so of run off.

Yea i've been feeding mine every watering as well and they have grown pretty fast I think... WHen you say "ec" do you mean "cc"? Here's what I feed them each time:

- dyna gro bloom - 3-4ml
- dyna gro grow - 1-2ml
- dyna gro protek - 3ml
- calmag - i was only doing 1-2ml each watering but just recently used 10ml to get them caught up
- epsom salt - i was using 1 tbls each gallon, but havent used for about 2 weeks...


Dyna gro analysis for grow, bloom, protek: http://www.dyna-gro.com/Website%20pdf%20Files/Dyna-Gro%20Brochure%202007.pdf
calmag (technaflora magical) analysis: http://www.igrowhydro.com/Technaflora-MagiCal-1-Liter.aspx

Maybe they just dont have enough nitrogen because of the promix not having nutes? should I up the Grow nutes for more nitrogen?

 

[ballgum]

how soon should i see the calmag changes? maybe the calmag just hasn't made them green yet?

 

[queequeg152]

ok so, lets look at the macros.

at 4ml bloom 2 ml grow and 2ml cal mag mixed into 1 gallon of water you get ...
total N
124
P
115
K
86
Magnesium
18
Sulfur
2
Calcium
60

this is in a mg/l ratio. mg/l is usually interchangeable with PPM

your surfur and mag is low because i did not include your epsom salt into the calculation. can you give me a gram amount you are adding?

i did not add the protekt as it is just potassium silicate,

but you can see that you are pretty low on calcium and K(keep in mind the protekt will raise that, i did not include it to simplify things), your nitrogen is probably not low enough to show symptoms, but i would bring that up as well. i did this calculation based on you mixing the above volumes of fertilizer into ONE gallon of water, if you are mixing it into an even larger or smaller volume it will differ significantly.
another thing to note is that those numbers are calculated based on the bottles gross weight... that included the weight of the bottle. ideally you need the actual density of the liquid, but i could not find that online. so these numbers are not perfect.



ok so to put this into perspective.
this is the nurtient profile i used without any problems from Lynette morgan supposedly specifically for hot chilies, this profile is also mentioned in a great book called " a practical guide for the soiless grower"

Nitrogen 302 ppm,
Phosphate 103 ppm,
potassium 364 ppm,
magnesium 96 ppm,
calcium 330 ppm,
sulphur 174 ppm,

and here is a nutrient profile from howard resh, a super well respected hydroponics guy. again for pepper plants.


N (NO3-) 190
K 340
P 40
Mg 50
Ca 170.471
S 115.108
Fe 4.772
Zn 0.273
B 0.027
Cu 0.068
Mo 0.041
Na 0
Si 0
Cl 0
Mn 1.364
N (NH4+) 9.869

 

[queequeg152]

ok so im trying to come up with a formula that will get you as close as possible to either of those formulas i posted using the grow and bloom epsom salt and cal mag. the problem is that both the grow and bloom contain micronutrients. typically a 2 or three part fertilizer will have the micros in one bottle.

because they are in both i cannot get a ratio that will approach either of the formulas without going way over stuff like copper and manganese, which could cause toxicity issues i believe.

are you sure that the pdf you linked is the same analysis as the bottles you use? from that pdf, it looks like the liquid bloom and grow are one part solutions?
i bet that you have a 2 bottle fertilizer.

 

[ballgum]

well i'm not really sure if that is the correct pdf..maybe it's old. i thought dyna was a multi part formula but i have no idea.

FYI an update...since i gave them the calmag the other day, the 2 scorpions are still yellow on top. The OTHERS are still green! Weird! why would only the scorpions be yellow? Also they still have the bumps on leaves as well. Is that supposed to go away when they have enough calcium??

I'm watering them again today with another 1 gallon per 5 gallon pot just to try to fix the deficiency (other wise I'd water much more water though them).

This time I will keep the calmag in there and add epsom salt back in. I'll probably up the grow formula a little bit? Not sure what else to do

 

[queequeg152]

well i'm not really sure if that is the correct pdf..maybe it's old. i thought dyna was a multi part formula but i have no idea.

FYI an update...since i gave them the calmag the other day, the 2 scorpions are still yellow on top. The OTHERS are still green! Weird! why would only the scorpions be yellow? Also they still have the bumps on leaves as well. Is that supposed to go away when they have enough calcium??

I'm watering them again today with another 1 gallon per 5 gallon pot just to try to fix the deficiency (other wise I'd water much more water though them).

This time I will keep the calmag in there and add epsom salt back in. I'll probably up the grow formula a little bit? Not sure what else to do

the old leaves will not heal themselves. provided the proper nutrition, all new growth should be healthy looking however.
i would not think its uncommon for different pepper plants to have different requirements for nutrients. like i said earlier, i have an aji lemon that is crazy hungry for nitrogen compared to all my other plants, it shows a deficiency within days if i get lazy and dont mix fertilizer.

BTW
i THINK, that you could use just one part of that dyna grow+ calmag+ the epsom salt and get a good mix.
im not familiar with dyna grow but it looks like a one part bottle unlike the GH series's that im familiar with.

 

[ballgum]

the old leaves will not heal themselves. provided the proper nutrition, all new growth should be healthy looking however.
i would not think its uncommon for different pepper plants to have different requirements for nutrients. like i said earlier, i have an aji lemon that is crazy hungry for nitrogen compared to all my other plants, it shows a deficiency within days if i get lazy and dont mix fertilizer.

BTW
i THINK, that you could use just one part of that dyna grow+ calmag+ the epsom salt and get a good mix.
im not familiar with dyna grow but it looks like a one part bottle unlike the GH series's that im familiar with.

sorry for the late reply!! i've been busy! but still trying to figure out this stupid problem!!!

Here's the update. I still have 6 plants total - all of them GREEN EXCEPT MY SCORPIONS!!! what gives?

The yellowing has gotten way worse! they are almost white now... I still have no idea what's wrong exactly! I think there has to be something specific to the scorpions as far as diet and feeding goes??

I will put up pics tonight.

But basically, I have been changing up the feedings to try to fix deficiencies.

In answer to your question - yes, dyna gro IS a 1 part nutrient formula. I forgot to mention the reason WHY I've been feeding GROW and BLOOM nutes at the same time. Alot of what I've read people will use bloom for flowers, however suppliment a little GROW for extra nitrogen since BLOOM has low nitrogen......so as an example, my last feeding was:

2 gallons of 6.5 PH'ed water mixed with: 3.5ml bloom, 1.5ml grow, 7ml calmag, 1tbsp epsom salt, 3ml protek (these are all per gallon).

This seems to me to be a complete formula!! what gives??? As my post shows, i'm getting frustrated and really to be honest no idea what to try at this point.

CAN ANYBODY CHIME IN ON THE SCORPIONS AND IF THEY'VE NOTICED ANY DIFFERENCES IN FEEDING?? SUCH AS SENSITIVITY TO NUTES... DIFFERENT NUTES THAN OTHER PLANTS... EXTRA MAG? EXTRA NITROGEN??

Also temps outside are getting hot now. about 95 - 105F in temp.

Bout the only thhing left I can think to try is FLUSHING the plants with tons of water to clear up excess nute buildup? I have yet to flush them... maybe the scorpions are just responding quicker than the other plants? Perhaps due to nute build up, they are getting locked out on nutes/?? Or when i feed them tonight I was thinking to UP the epsom and add extra GROW formula (maybe nitrogen deficient)?

Because the scorpions were growing GREAT up until a couple weeks ago (on the same nute feedings as the other plants)!!

Any ideas?? I'll put up more pics tonight. i really need to get this fixed now before they get worse!! thanks all for reading/listening.

 

[queequeg152]

this is what i get with your numbers. the silicates were not included.



Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 23.52 2.4
Mag-i-Cal Input Formula Here 6.09 0.6
Dyna-gro Grow Input Formula Here 1.174 0.1
Dyna-gro Bloom Input Formula Here 3.04 0.3


N (NO3-) 64.293 0% +/- 0%
K 144.132 0% +/- 0%
P 269.075 0% +/- 0%
Mg 638.31 0% +/- 0%
Ca 74.551 0% +/- 0%
S 809.232 0% +/- 0%
Fe 2.883 0% +/- 0%
Zn 0.557 0% +/- 0%
B 0.223 0% +/- 0%
Cu 0.557 0% +/- 0%
Mo 0.01 0% +/- 0%
Na 1.113 0% +/- 0%
Si 0 0% +/- 0%
Cl 1.113 0% +/- 0%
Mn 0.557 0% +/- 0%
N (NH4+) 13.685 0% +/- 0%

EC=5.3 mS/cm


haha 809 mg/l of sulphate thats crazy, i have to check those numbers.

1 Tsb of epsom salt is 14ml right?
edit:

yea 1 table spoon is 14 ml, so you are adding 23 grams of epsom salt per gallon? i think you mean tea spoon?
if not thats a ton. i would back that down to like 3-5 grams per gallon.
it is my understanding that plants tend to be super tolerant to sulfur tho.

ill get back to you in a while, but i think its safe to say you are underfeeding for plants in pure promix.

 

[ballgum]

this is what i get with your numbers. the silicates were not included.



Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 23.52 2.4
Mag-i-Cal Input Formula Here 6.09 0.6
Dyna-gro Grow Input Formula Here 1.174 0.1
Dyna-gro Bloom Input Formula Here 3.04 0.3


N (NO3-) 64.293 0% +/- 0%
K 144.132 0% +/- 0%
P 269.075 0% +/- 0%
Mg 638.31 0% +/- 0%
Ca 74.551 0% +/- 0%
S 809.232 0% +/- 0%
Fe 2.883 0% +/- 0%
Zn 0.557 0% +/- 0%
B 0.223 0% +/- 0%
Cu 0.557 0% +/- 0%
Mo 0.01 0% +/- 0%
Na 1.113 0% +/- 0%
Si 0 0% +/- 0%
Cl 1.113 0% +/- 0%
Mn 0.557 0% +/- 0%
N (NH4+) 13.685 0% +/- 0%

EC=5.3 mS/cm


haha 809 mg/l of sulphate thats crazy, i have to check those numbers.

1 Tsb of epsom salt is 14ml right?
edit:

yea 1 table spoon is 14 ml, so you are adding 23 grams of epsom salt per gallon? i think you mean tea spoon?
if not thats a ton. i would back that down to like 3-5 grams per gallon.
it is my understanding that plants tend to be super tolerant to sulfur tho.

ill get back to you in a while, but i think its safe to say you are underfeeding for plants in pure promix.

Thanks for getting back to me, I really appreciate it. I hope to figure out what the heck I'm doing wrong! So maybe tonight I'll up the bloom/grow by a couple ml's per gallon and see what happens

So perhaps, the trinidad genetics need MORE food?? My other plants (habs, douglah, bhut) are all green except the trinidads... Also, some of my plants have the bubbled up and hard leaves, but still green. I did mean tablesppon of epsom, so if that's too high, I can lower that to teaspoon. I thought tablespoon was ok...

 

[queequeg152]

sorry but i just cant come up with a good solution using either bloom or grow. i really think that plant is looking for calcium and nitrogen. i dont know why it is the only plant showing symptoms tbh thats a bit puzzling, i would think with numbers like that they would all show problems.

its totally possible that with something like 10g of grow per gallon you could adress the problems, only problem is... that dynagrow is 9% phosphate so when you try to push up the nitrogen to where you want it phosphate numbers start to explode. im not sure how tolerant pepper plants are to super high phosphate, you might want to researth that.. but its possible they would have no problem with 300ppm+.

your calcium numbers are hard to solve too, because magi cal adds 9% by volume phoshpate as well lol, so by trying to push your calcium up to where you want it you are exploding phosphate even more.

if i were you i would buy a small amount of calcium nitrate. its a super common fertilizer that costs like 1.5 bucks a lb. or like 75 bucks for a 50lb bag. when you dissolve it into water you just calcium and nitrogen. try looking for a fertilizer store or a 'feed and seed' something like that should carry the stuff. the problem might be getting it in smallish amounts.

this is what hydrobuddy calculates for reshes profile using dyna-gro + calcium nitrate + epsom salt.

Values calculated for the preparation of 1 gallons


Dyna-gro Grow Input Formula Here 7.17 0.7
Calcium Nitrate (Tetrahydrate) Ca(NO3)2.4H2O 3.097 0.3
Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 1.556 0.2


N (NO3-) 180.378 -5.10% +/- 2.7%
K 94.71 -72.10% +/- 0.8%
P 170.478 326.20% +/- 11.9%
Mg 50 0% +/- 3.2%
Ca 176.725 4% +/- 3%
S 54.424 -84.90% +/- 0.5%
Fe 1.894 -62.10% +/- 1.1%
Zn 0.947 187% +/- 8%
B 0.379 14.80% +/- 3.2%
Cu 0.947 1794.20% +/- 52.7%
Mo 0.017 -65.90% +/- 0.9%
Na 1.894 0% +/- 0%
Si 0 0% +/- 0%
Cl 1.894 0% +/- 0%
Mn 0.947 72.20% +/- 4.8%
N (NH4+) 49.249 173.60% +/- 7.6%

EC=1.8 mS/cm

if you cant get calcium nitrate you might try something like the 3 part GH fertilizers. since they seperate the micros into one bottle. you get alot more flexibility.

i wish i could give you a simpler answer, but i just cant figure out how to get your nitrogen and calcium up without exploding other elements. someone else might be able to however.

 

[queequeg152]

So perhaps, the trinidad genetics need MORE food?? My other plants (habs, douglah, bhut) are all green except the trinidads... Also, some of my plants have the bubbled up and hard leaves, but still green. I did mean tablesppon of epsom, so if that's too high, I can lower that to teaspoon. I thought tablespoon was ok...

that would be my guess. the other plants that are not showing problems very well could benifit from a better nutrient solution. i think you could very well see a better rate of growth.

lol i mix my nutrients by the 32 gallon trashcan load from raw salts. i mix 20g of epsom salt in each batch.
so you were using a bit more than me, but in 1 gallon of water
no sweat tho, like i said plants apparently are super tolerant to sulphate, magnesium less so... it supposedly can antagonize calcium and potassium and cause its uptake to be reduced, but who knows.

 

[J762]

Some plants are just weird like that. I've noticed that my Yellow 7 pods in general are more sensitive to nutes, especially 2 in particular. They burn really Really easy with low amounts of ferts, but also freak out if I don't hit them regularly enough. They're just pissy like that. I know in the future all plants that act like that will be culled out.
I also have an Aji Lemon that is way sensitive to Calcium. It straight burns off all new growth while the Aji next to it has no problem with the same amount spayed on it.

 

[Mr. T]

when a plant is calcium deficient, the margins tend grow at a slower rate than that of midrib or center portion of the leaf. thats why you tend to see distortion with calcium.

we can infer its not nitrogen because nitrogen is mobile and begins at the bottom of the plant and moves towards the top. we can infer it is not magnesium because mag also shows up on older leaves first, it also tends to show up in the leaf margins first as interveinal chlorosis.

this imo is the best flowchart for deficiency symptopms. keep in mind some of these symptoms can also be caused by PH etc.

i dont think anyone here is claiming its 100% calcium deficiency, or at least i am not. it just seems to strongly resemble it.

IMO you should take stock of what exactly you are giving the plants using that website i linked. your fertilizer bottles should have all the necessary information. use saltmix.xls or that website i linked.

Thank you for this awesome chart!

 

[ballgum]

sorry but i just cant come up with a good solution using either bloom or grow. i really think that plant is looking for calcium and nitrogen. i dont know why it is the only plant showing symptoms tbh thats a bit puzzling, i would think with numbers like that they would all show problems.

its totally possible that with something like 10g of grow per gallon you could adress the problems, only problem is... that dynagrow is 9% phosphate so when you try to push up the nitrogen to where you want it phosphate numbers start to explode. im not sure how tolerant pepper plants are to super high phosphate, you might want to researth that.. but its possible they would have no problem with 300ppm+.

your calcium numbers are hard to solve too, because magi cal adds 9% by volume phoshpate as well lol, so by trying to push your calcium up to where you want it you are exploding phosphate even more.

if i were you i would buy a small amount of calcium nitrate. its a super common fertilizer that costs like 1.5 bucks a lb. or like 75 bucks for a 50lb bag. when you dissolve it into water you just calcium and nitrogen. try looking for a fertilizer store or a 'feed and seed' something like that should carry the stuff. the problem might be getting it in smallish amounts.

this is what hydrobuddy calculates for reshes profile using dyna-gro + calcium nitrate + epsom salt.

Values calculated for the preparation of 1 gallons


Dyna-gro Grow Input Formula Here 7.17 0.7
Calcium Nitrate (Tetrahydrate) Ca(NO3)2.4H2O 3.097 0.3
Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 1.556 0.2


N (NO3-) 180.378 -5.10% +/- 2.7%
K 94.71 -72.10% +/- 0.8%
P 170.478 326.20% +/- 11.9%
Mg 50 0% +/- 3.2%
Ca 176.725 4% +/- 3%
S 54.424 -84.90% +/- 0.5%
Fe 1.894 -62.10% +/- 1.1%
Zn 0.947 187% +/- 8%
B 0.379 14.80% +/- 3.2%
Cu 0.947 1794.20% +/- 52.7%
Mo 0.017 -65.90% +/- 0.9%
Na 1.894 0% +/- 0%
Si 0 0% +/- 0%
Cl 1.894 0% +/- 0%
Mn 0.947 72.20% +/- 4.8%
N (NH4+) 49.249 173.60% +/- 7.6%

EC=1.8 mS/cm

if you cant get calcium nitrate you might try something like the 3 part GH fertilizers. since they seperate the micros into one bottle. you get alot more flexibility.

i wish i could give you a simpler answer, but i just cant figure out how to get your nitrogen and calcium up without exploding other elements. someone else might be able to however.

So what can I do to troubleshoot it?? Perhaps next feeding feed ONLY the calmag solution and magnesium? So, if the issue is calcium then phosphate won't be too much and calcium should fix deficiency?

Or NOT feed calmag and only feed grow formula and magnesium to see if nitrogen is the issue?

One thing I CAN say is...the plants are still growing like crazy! If with all the yellowing they are some of my bigger plants...

 

[ballgum]

Thank you for this awesome chart!

The chart looks pretty good... but too be honest I really can't tell what the problem is from looking at it. it seems like the yellwoing fits too many circumstances

 

[ballgum]

that would be my guess. the other plants that are not showing problems very well could benifit from a better nutrient solution. i think you could very well see a better rate of growth.

lol i mix my nutrients by the 32 gallon trashcan load from raw salts. i mix 20g of epsom salt in each batch.
so you were using a bit more than me, but in 1 gallon of water
no sweat tho, like i said plants apparently are super tolerant to sulphate, magnesium less so... it supposedly can antagonize calcium and potassium and cause its uptake to be reduced, but who knows.

perhaps the problem IS that too much mag is supressing calcium? Next watering I will try with no mag and only calmag/grow?

 

[ballgum]

pics! you can see both of the scorpions in these pics... and the pic that's all green is a douglah that is growing next to the scorpions

 

[queequeg152]

hey sorry, i made a mistake putting together all the information from your fertilizer bottles. for some reason i copied over the dyna gro analysis numbers into the magi cal field. i should of known wheni quoted you 9% phosphate on both. makes alot more sense to me now... i was boggleing over why a so called cal mag had phosphates in it at all. ill fix it in a minute and get back to you.

perhaps the problem IS that too much mag is supressing calcium? Next watering I will try with no mag and only calmag/grow?

its very possible... according to what ive read anyway. i just dont know at what concentration it begins to interfere with other nutrients. however do not stop the epsom salt all together. cal mag and dyna grow have almost 0 sulphate(you cannot mix sulfur and calcium at high concentrations), so you need to add some 3-5 grams would be fine i bet. you need around 60 ppm/mg/L

 

[queequeg152]

ok so here is a profile i came up with after fixing the mag-i-cal numbers.
the phosphate numbers are still higher than reccomended by 331% but i dont think it will be a problem.
IMO this is about as close as you are going to get to the howard resh nutrient profil



this is 7.2g of grow and 16.6g of mag-i-cal.
or

5ml grow and 14.2ml mag-i-cal

as you can see sulphate is almost 0 so i would add 3grams.



Values calculated for the preparation of 1 gallons


Magnesium Sulfate (Heptahydrate) MgSO4.7H2O 0
Dyna-Gro Input Formula Here 7.26g
Mag-I-Cal Input Formula Here 16.6g


N (NO3-) 172.14 -9.40%
K 95.92 -71.80%
P 172.66 331.60%
Mg 64.42 28.80%
Ca 180.93 6.40%
S 0.96 -99.70%
Fe 6.94 38.70%
Zn 0.96 190.70%
B 0.38 16.30%
Cu 0.96 1818.40%
Mo 0.02 -65.50%
Na 1.92 0.00%
Si 0 0.00%
Cl 1.92 0.00%
Mn 0.96 74.40%
N (NH4+) 49.88 177.10%

EC=1.6 mS/cm


5ml grow 14.2ml cal mag & 3g epsom salt.

thats what i would do!
haha this thread would be so much shorter if i had caught that mistake earlier...

Edit:

oh yea the % number you see is gross error by weight, the number in front is mg/l ... things dont paste well from excel.
you see copper is way high, its possible it could be a problem. i understand that toxicity can occur above 1 mg/l ? maby someone else can chime in on that one.