lighting I've been thinkin'....and that was my first mistake. Indoor Lighting Help.

[3/5King]

So, I've been looking into different choices in lighting for my indoor grow this spring.

I started out seeing a few videos on YouTube in regards to LED UFO lights. Which by the video, (which was doing a side by side comparison with a HID) seemed to do very well in growing large plants. I believe they were testing a 200W UFO against a 400W HPS HID.

I then went to my local hydro store for some nutes and started talking with the owner about lighting. I told him about the video and he gave his thoughts on LEDs. He told me that LED's are only good for supplemental light and wouldn't be good for full indoor growth. He mentioned that they do put off a lot of heat, unlike what is advertised. Basically told me to steer clear.

I then told him that I had X Kelvin/Lumen CFL's in my grow and basically went on with what I know about lights at this point. He told me that the Kelvin scale and Lumen output is not a good way to choose my lighting and that what I need to know is the PAR reading. He said that they PAR measurement is what I should be going off of to decide how much light I need for my grow.

(I knew nothing then of PAR readings and know little now. It's my understanding that it is a measurement of all usable light through out the spectrum and it's intensity) (Correct me if I'm wrong)

So here is where my dilemma comes into play. Now when I look at lights and see all of these Kelvin/Lumen ratings, I feel like they don't mean anything and I can't decide what is a good light and what is not.

I was going to go the HID route but my buddy doesn't want to cut holes in his shed to vent the heat and we only have a total of roughly 48" from top to bottom in our grow area, so that wouldn't be enough room for a HID anyway.

So I started looking for T-5 HO 8-12 Bulb Fixtures which, it seems to me, the fixture itself doesn't really matter much but the actual bulbs you put in it are going to decide how much success you are going to have.

Which comes back to my original problem. Everything is rated in Lumens/Kelvins....which I don't know what to make of now. Guess when it comes down to it, I'd like the more knowledgeable growers to inform me of your opinions on the topic.

What might you suggest for Flouro's? What's a good fixture to get? Good bulbs? What's worked for you?

My intentions are to start plants indoors and possibly fully grow a few plants (to flower and fruit) in the winter.

Please fill me in because I am a little lost now that the PAR reading has been thrown into the equation. It's not an easy measurement to come by without having a meter yourself.

Thanks

 

[millworkman]

Woah. That's a lot to go with.

I'll be back later when I've got a full keyboard for ya

 

[KiNGDeNNiZ]

im somewhat replicating SHANE's light fixture.. and to tell you the truth.. i started mine a month before his and his are 3x bigger than mine... his has more lights...

got the 18w equvilent to 75w 6500K

hope this helps

im sure if it was enclosed.. would have more light absorbed... wish u luck

 

[PexPeppers]

im somewhat replicating SHANE's light fixture.. and to tell you the truth.. i started mine a month before his and his are 3x bigger than mine... his has more lights...

got the 18w equvilent to 75w 6500K

hope this helps

im sure if it was enclosed.. would have more light absorbed... wish u luck

Is that an Aerogarden in the back?

 

[Vegas_Chili]

My plants under LEDs.

So LEDs are only good for supplementing light and not ideal for indoor grow? He's probably still on old technology, welcome to LEDs.

, Vegas

 

[RPM55]

I've done a lot of internet surfing looking at various light fixtures. Here are some you may want to look at.

Ihttp://www.amazon.com/EnviroGro-FLT48-4-Feet-Commercial-Fixture/dp/B002TJKS8Y/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=16Y38LY25DD7O&coliid=I317GQWBVLAGYI

http://www.lightingwise.com/item.asp?PID=153&FID=6&level=1

http://www.lightingwise.com/item.asp?PID=143&FID=16&level=1

Some things to consider when shopping for fixtures are shipping costs and does the fixture come with bulbs?

I have found that if you look at the commercial or industrial type fixtures they are usually less expensive than the ones labeled as grow lights. Many times the commercial lights share the same features. I would look for lights using the highly reflective German made aluminum reflectors. Most lights these days come with electronic ballasts for more efficient operation and cooler operation as well.

Hope this helps.

Robert

 

[Jeff H]

I was going to go the HID route but my buddy doesn't want to cut holes in his shed to vent the heat and we only have a total of roughly 48" from top to bottom in our grow area, so that wouldn't be enough room for a HID anyway.

48" is more than enough room. I think my 600 watt bulb is only 30" or less from the bench height. Some of the tallest plants are only a few inches away but since they are used to the light, they don't mind.

It isn't really that hot and I certainly don't think that a shed, especially an unheated shed, could possibly overheat. Just to give you an example, I have mine in a closed room approximately 4'x6' and with the door shut and the lights on in my basement, it is about 77 degrees in the room. Ambient temp in my basement is probably 65 deg or so.

 

[PIC 1]

If you're only interested in getting the "midwest" jump on the pepper growing $ for $ go to HD and get a 6 bulb T8 high bay fixture for $ 70 bucks. If buying more then buy the 10 packs of bulbs. I buy the 100 packs through an electrical supply. The HD fixtures are cheap, the one's we use at work cost triple through and electrical wharehouse.

The HPS/HID will heat up a small space. I use to have a couple of 1000w's. I'm down to few 400w mh's and a bunch of T8's. Unless you were growing year round I'd stick to the flouros.
As far as the cfl's. I don't use them.........although If I did I'd certainly have them in a flood reflector. Why scatter the light in other directions away from the plants?

 

[3/5King]

My plants under LEDs.

So LEDs are only good for supplementing light and not ideal for indoor grow? He's probably still on old technology, welcome to LEDs.

, Vegas

Looks nice, yeah, I didn't know if he was right or wrong because I have no experience with them. Your plants look great. What is your LED setup? Is it homemade or store bought? Expensive? Does it put off a lot of heat? This is the kind of thing I wanted, personal experience and you give pics to back it up! Although I would still be curious to know what there penetration is like and if you can grow mature plants under them.

I've done a lot of internet surfing looking at various light fixtures. Here are some you may want to look at.

Ihttp://www.amazon.co...=I317GQWBVLAGYI

http://www.lightingw...3&FID=6&level=1

http://www.lightingw...&FID=16&level=1

Some things to consider when shopping for fixtures are shipping costs and does the fixture come with bulbs?

I have found that if you look at the commercial or industrial type fixtures they are usually less expensive than the ones labeled as grow lights. Many times the commercial lights share the same features. I would look for lights using the highly reflective German made aluminum reflectors. Most lights these days come with electronic ballasts for more efficient operation and cooler operation as well.

Hope this helps.

Robert

I will check it out.

48" is more than enough room. I think my 600 watt bulb is only 30" or less from the bench height. Some of the tallest plants are only a few inches away but since they are used to the light, they don't mind.

It isn't really that hot and I certainly don't think that a shed, especially an unheated shed, could possibly overheat. Just to give you an example, I have mine in a closed room approximately 4'x6' and with the door shut and the lights on in my basement, it is about 77 degrees in the room. Ambient temp in my basement is probably 65 deg or so.

Interesting....Although, this shed is insulated to the max. In the winter it is fine but come early spring, it get's hot up there...could reach temps of 110+ and that's just running flouro's (The plants are in the loft part of the shed. (check out my glog and you can see it) http://thehotpepper.com/topic/28097-peppin-aint-easy35kings-2012/

We have an A/C unit in there but we don't want to have to run it all the time.

If you're only interested in getting the "midwest" jump on the pepper growing $ for $ go to HD and get a 6 bulb T8 high bay fixture for $ 70 bucks. If buying more then buy the 10 packs of bulbs. I buy the 100 packs through an electrical supply. The HD fixtures are cheap, the one's we use at work cost triple through and electrical wharehouse.

The HPS/HID will heat up a small space. I use to have a couple of 1000w's. I'm down to few 400w mh's and a bunch of T8's. Unless you were growing year round I'd stick to the flouros.

As far as the cfl's. I don't use them.........although If I did I'd certainly have them in a flood reflector. Why scatter the light in other directions away from the plants?

I've used CFL's at my house (in my grow box) and I am not impressed at all, if I had the money I would ditch the CFL's and get some 2ft flouro's to go in there. I will never use CFL's again.

As for the HID's...you've seen the grow space we have in the shed, it's in the loft part and that shed is insulated well. It can get pretty hot up there, even with flouro's. We wanted to be able to take plants out in the fall and keep them flowering and fruiting through the winter. I know that flouro's don't have very good penetration but I'm sure with enough of them they would do ok? Put one on the left and right side, vertically?


I'm still looking into all of the different bulb choices and what not. I was looking at Homedepot online. I'm not sure I saw a price though. I'll have to stop in and take a look.

 

[Vegas_Chili]

Here's a link about my LEDs.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/36946-my-led-rigupdate-info-added/#entry763856

I know everyone is into super hots, but I like these little ones. My pequin is podding up nice and hace lots of flowers (under the same LEDs).

I first tried to rig something up and this was my first attempt. I heard to much bad reviews on the commercial ones (mostly eBay), and then I just saw that some people actually build their own (I'm like oh yes ). Some of the commercial ones are ok it's just the money..... As far as indoor grow it's just like any other type of "grow light " all you need is to find the best lumen per Watt ratio (economic) , more lumens equals more coverage and if you get low wattage light you just saved a few cents. Watts is how fast your meter goes and not how much light it puts out.

IMO CFL's still have white light, meaning you're probably wasting lumens on light the plant doesn't need. In the other hand if you're giving it the light your plants actually need (red, blue) you're not wasting any lumens or Watts on light you don't need. That's just my opinion.

Since that was my first LED rig, I myself made a mistake (like we all do), I got 3 Watt LED instead of 1 Watt LED, I could've used more LEDs and get better coverage for the amount that I'm using (I use 15 LEDs, so that's 45 Watts plus the CPU fan). I will do a better one before this next winter, and it's gona be better built and more effective.

, Vegas

 

[stc3248]

Yeah Dave...this is one you're not going to get a "right" answer on. If I had the money I would probably go with a T5 with a color of between 5000 and 6500 or even better Greg's setup which is BA...CFLs work great for me, but I use a TON of them and mix them with T8s to get good results. I've read mixed reviews on the UFO led's and haven't used them so can't comment. If you want them to fruit I would use an HPS system, but then you're right back to the heat issue. Since for now all you have to worry about is keeping them growing a bit until plant out I would go with the cheapest and easiest way to get it done, and plan this throughout the year. Maybe before its time to bring in the overwinters next fall you'll have secured a bigger spot to put your setup in.

Just a note...my ornamentals went from hooks to buds in one month under my CFLs...just sayin!

 

[3/5King]

Thanks Vegas. That's pretty cool that you built your own.

Shane, see the thing is, that whole Kelvin scale (like you said 5000-6500) doesn't mean what we've all been led to believe. At least that's what I'm getting from the reading I've been doing. So as in, one bulb could say 6500K but that doesn't mean that it will be as good as another that is 6500K. All lights are not equal, you could have two lights that are the same Wattage and the same Kelvin scale but they put off different amounts of different color light on the spectrum. If that makes sense. Supposedly those reading pertain to what the human eye perceives and not necessarily what the plant can use.

I'll probably just end up having to go with something and see for myself....I hate doing that because then I feel like a "Parts changer" you know, the guy that just replaces parts until one of them fixes the problem...instead of figuring out exactly what's wrong first.

 

[stc3248]

Oh it simple then...all you need a Quantum Meter to measure the Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF) of your system so you can know how many photons per square meter you have every second that fall into the Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) range of 380-720 nanometers to identify exactly which system is giving you the most effective and efficient spectral quality for your plants...DUH! I thought that was considered must know information before joining here??? Noob

 

[3/5King]

Oh it simple then...all you need a Quantum Meter to measure the Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF) of your system so you can know how many photons per square meter you have every second that fall into the Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) range of 380-720 nanometers to identify exactly which system is giving you the most effective and efficient spectral quality for your plants...DUH! I thought that was considered must know information before joining here??? Noob

Hahahaha.....you prick.

I figured there had to be some growers that have done ^^^This and had some answers for me. Answers outside of the "kelvin/lumen" theory. Like "Yeah, I have a meter and I found out that these (x) lights work out the best" or something along those lines. I want a better way to choose a light but I don't think I will get it. So I've decided I'm going to buy 500 Incandescent bulbs from Wally world and string them up like christmas lights....that shit will be bright yo!

 

[stc3248]

Christmas lights...great for frost defense...chitty for growing plants. I dunno man, not trying to be a prick just this question is always asked and never answered. Unfortunately without a quantum meter and a visit to every hydro shop, home store and illicit grow tent you can find meter in hand to test their setups I don't think its gonna get answered. I know my cfls work...and I know folks t8s work as do T5s, metal halide and high pressure sodium...I do remember a topic on here a while back about how HPS produces the most efficient light spectum to grow with...but don't know the science that post was based on? Aside from writing your dissertation on artificial plant lighting and buying a quantum meter to measure all the options your gonna get a bunch of dummies like me saying "I dunno, but these work for me!" Good luck Dave, hope you figure it out. As for me, I'm watching craigslist for T5s that 420 folks are ditching...

By the way cheapest quantum meter I found was only $185...

 

[Jamison]

I'm gonna have to say T5's bud. And for starting plants I'd throw in some 6500K lamps. And if you want to get some to pod up I'd mix a couple 2700K lamps in there with it when they start flowering. The T5's can get so close to you plants, which is awesome, not as close as you could get with a T8 but the T5 are def brighter! Just my .02

 

[megahurts]

A quality T5 like the Flurogrow units will get you there. FG also is developing/selling induction lights.

A quality LED like the Lumigrow will give any HPS a run for its money in the PAR readings.

Beyond that, I'd get solar tubes installed to harness the power of the sun for no energy cost.

These two lamp companies, while on the very opposite sides of the nation, are very similar and have a common theme that I'm finding to be the common denominator for lights I like - University testing and development. When these companies are teamed up with real scientists, they seem to develop better products that don't lay claim to lumens but focus on case studies with measurable results. They're testing wavelength combinations and penetration capabilities of the fixtures and using them for commercial applications.

just my .02.

MHz

 

[3/5King]

Christmas lights...great for frost defense...chitty for growing plants. I dunno man, not trying to be a prick just this question is always asked and never answered. Unfortunately without a quantum meter and a visit to every hydro shop, home store and illicit grow tent you can find meter in hand to test their setups I don't think its gonna get answered. I know my cfls work...and I know folks t8s work as do T5s, metal halide and high pressure sodium...I do remember a topic on here a while back about how HPS produces the most efficient light spectum to grow with...but don't know the science that post was based on? Aside from writing your dissertation on artificial plant lighting and buying a quantum meter to measure all the options your gonna get a bunch of dummies like me saying "I dunno, but these work for me!" Good luck Dave, hope you figure it out. As for me, I'm watching craigslist for T5s that 420 folks are ditching...

By the way cheapest quantum meter I found was only $185...

I know you weren't Shane, you were just busting my balls for asking a redundant question...that I'm sure you would like to know the answer too as well. I think the funny part is that I was talking about how I wanted information/experience from outside the kelvin/lumen scales and everyone that responds, all they are talking about are kelvins and lumens lol. So I guess you are right, I won't ever get my answer outside of doing my own research with a work pouch full of meters and scales. That's ok though, everyone is trying to help the best they can and that is all I can ask for. I mean, I know that people are using these lights they speak of and getting results....I was just trying to find out the answer to the question why. Why are they getting these results with that light? Yet there are too many factors that are even outside the scope of the light itself to answer these questions....for instance, the fact that you are having great results using CFL's and mine are so poor...although we use the same light, we produce different results. I'm ok with it now...I know that the lights that work are the lights that work and I will see results using them...good enough results....and then possibly one day, a knight in shinning armor will come along and answer all of our questions, saving us from the abyss of the unknown....bahahahahaha. Ok, that's a little too far, but hey, you get what I'm sayin'.

I too am watching CL for lights. I actually have someone calling me tomorrow morning about some lights that they are selling; A T-5 HO 8 Bulb and a T-5 HO 4 bulb...depending on the price, I might scoop them up.

A quality T5 like the Flurogrow units will get you there. FG also is developing/selling induction lights.

A quality LED like the Lumigrow will give any HPS a run for its money in the PAR readings.

Beyond that, I'd get solar tubes installed to harness the power of the sun for no energy cost.

These two lamp companies, while on the very opposite sides of the nation, are very similar and have a common theme that I'm finding to be the common denominator for lights I like - University testing and development. When these companies are teamed up with real scientists, they seem to develop better products that don't lay claim to lumens but focus on case studies with measurable results. They're testing wavelength combinations and penetration capabilities of the fixtures and using them for commercial applications.

just my .02.

MHz

MHz, I like your theory...it makes sense. I will check out those companies and see what they have to offer. Like I've said before, when it comes to flouro's I think the bulb is the investment...next to that is the way that the fixture reflects and focus's the light and in the end you want a quality ballast. So..that is what I am going to look for. Thanks for the help.

 

[stc3248]

Scoop away buddy if the price is right. Hope you find your answers.

 

[Weed]

The best way I have found when buying bulbs online is to look at the output spectral graph that the manufacturer usually provides and compare it with the PAR spectrum. I think King is right that color doesnt mean much as you can mix different frequencies to come up with the same color, say 2700k. But I also think that you still know a light at 2700k will be more red and therefore better at flowering than a more blue light if all else is equal. Lumens are what the human eye sees best and is basically green light. Theres a graph for this if you need to see it. A light can a really bad spectrum and have that little bump in the right area and suddenly go from 300 to 3000 lumens from one added phosphor. It wont grow anything nearly as well as well as a "dimmer" light, measured in lumes, that as a more balanced spectrum.

I think people forget that in the PAR spectrum which basically goes from 400 to 700nm the plant is photosynthetically active the whole way across, from to blue to green to yellow, orange and red. The main difference being HOW reactive it is to which spectrum. HPS has a really bad spectrum compared to PAR if youve ever looked at it. Yet it still grows great plants. As does MH with an equally bad spectrum. The difference being which ends of the spectrum they mainly produce.

This leads me to the other thing people mostly forget. Plants adapt. If you can give them sufficient POWER with even a little PAR you can see decent results.

So to me its this simple, more power somewhere in PAR, equals better results. But if you try to get your PAR in green youll need relatively twice the power as the plant is about half as reactive at this frequency. But blue or red, as HPS and MH have shown us, will yield better results. Even a relatively low powered fluorescent light putting out decent PAR watts will grow a decent plant even at 1/10th the lumens of a 400w HPS.

What I look for is power and spectrum. Temperature doesnt matter so much, temp is more a factor of the spectrum anyway. People touting one kelvin temp over the other may want to look at what spectrum these bulbs are putting out.

Besides power and spectrum the other thing I check is CRI (Color rendering index). This is based on color reproduction of what youd see in the sun. A bulb wih a cri of 70 compared to one that has a rating of 91 wont be anywhere near as good, with everything else being equal. Compare a MH to a Ceramic Metal Halide, first the CRI, then the spectrum. Most of the important things are tied to each other. If a bulb can make colors look like they would in sunlight there is a reason.

I was going to only give you my 2 cents but I think I gave you like 30 cents or so.

For me its power * spectrum and the CRI. Theres no silver bullet and even picking out "the right" light can become time consuming.