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breeding F1's - Hybrids - making your own crosses...

chilliman64

chilliman64

please excuse my ignorance and/or stupidity.

just so I am clear - if a variety is labelled F1 or Hybrid or Hybridised (maybe there are other terms also) does that mean that seed produced by its pods will not produce true on the second generation?

I am thinking about trying to make my own cross but several of the varieties I have been considering are hybrids so maybe I am wasting my time. this could be a plus though as it does show that these varieties may cross more easily based on their genetics. also, several of the considered varieties were TMV resistant etc which is another bonus.

I just don't want to waste my time - if a variety won't reproduce true under normal circumstances then the potential for a totally erratic/random offspring will only be a greater possibility when using an unstable parent. especially when I am after a specific result - a fairly lofty goal from a self-confessed ignoramous I know!

any thoughts?
 
For my 2c - go for hardy plants to make crosses. According to Darwin (some biologists still agree with him) the offspring will have a greater chance of survival. Hybrids can be finicky & go belly up at changes in temperature and other petty problems.
Of course if you're a creationist, you're even deeper in the poo ahh lets not go there ;)

For me i sprout up 20 odd seedlings & leave them in the seed tray for way too long. Pick out dozen or so of the best growers put them into small pots and sit them outside...let them go short on water once a week...too much water every other week..healthiest go in the ground.
My best results have come from putting the variety that produces the most pods in a square pattern & the crossing variety in a corner of that square. Like on the numeric keypad of your keyboard...my Siam take over all numbers, but #7 is Cayenne, 8 is habanero, 1 is malawi birdseye. The crosses then happen randomly through the patch. I can pluck out odd looking pods and save the seeds for resprouting on their own.

Dammit now who's rambling :lol: wheres my foil hat :eh:
 
There is a lot of confusion when something is labelled as "hybridized". Every plant has been hybridized pretty much, and then usually stabilized until it is no longer considered a hybrid. F1 means it is the first generation, F2 second generation etc. F1's may grow very productive, having hybrid vigour and f2'2 will start to show reccesive genes and grow quite differently. Breeding takes many generations to stabilize but don't let that stop you. Just save lots of F1 seeds to go back to if you like them better. I bred a BigBertha(F1) with a trinidad Scorpion this year when I forgot that the BigBertha was an F1. It should be a strange mix of genetics but I may just be wasting my time.
 
chilliman64 said:
please excuse my ignorance and/or stupidity.

just so I am clear - if a variety is labelled F1 or Hybrid or Hybridised (maybe there are other terms also) does that mean that seed produced by its pods will not produce true on the second generation?

I am thinking about trying to make my own cross but several of the varieties I have been considering are hybrids so maybe I am wasting my time. this could be a plus though as it does show that these varieties may cross more easily based on their genetics. also, several of the considered varieties were TMV resistant etc which is another bonus.

I just don't want to waste my time - if a variety won't reproduce true under normal circumstances then the potential for a totally erratic/random offspring will only be a greater possibility when using an unstable parent. especially when I am after a specific result - a fairly lofty goal from a self-confessed ignoramous I know!

any thoughts?
Click to expand...

When you're making a cross you won't know what you're gonna get, although you might have an idea... After making a cross you will need to isolate and grow the variety for some generations, i.e. F2, F3, F4, F5 and so on...the plants will look more and more alike for every year/generation given that you are using isolated (self-pollinated) seeds every year. Read somewhere that it takes around 6-8 generations to fully stabilize a cross.

Like Bentalphanard described you will need to start a lot of seeds each year, select the ones that look best, maybe after giving them a stress-test.

So to answer your question whether you can use a hybrid I would say yes, because stabilizing the cross afterwards in theory still takes the same amount of time (generations), but using a hybrid with a mixed DNA pool could lead to greater diversity amongst plants, especially the in first generations...

This year I have made 3 succesful crosses so far:
- Small Wild from Mexico (a miniature pequin) crossed with Naga Morich, which yielded 1 pod with 7 seeds.
- Orange Thai X Small Wild from Mexico (4 pods growing)
- Orange Thai X Goat's Weed (2 pods growing)

I am planning to make more crosses using Small Wild from Mexico crossed with two chinense varieties...;)
 
So once you get to the F2, F3, F4, etc. generations, what do you cross them with? Others of the same generation or keep crossing them with F1s? ie:
Plant A x Plant B
F1 x F1
F2 x F1
F3 x f1
 
RedThumb said:
So once you get to the F2, F3, F4, etc. generations, what do you cross them with? Others of the same generation or keep crossing them with F1s? ie:
Plant A x Plant B
F1 x F1
F2 x F1
F3 x f1
Click to expand...

This depends on what you want to create - I will not be crossing more than once - after this it will each year all be about growing a number of plants from selfpollinated seeds from the best plant(s) from previous season. If you choose to pollinate say a F2-plant with one of the initial parents again - then you will have another F1 variety when growing those seeds. It will be like starting all over again - but with relatively more genetics present from the variety you selected for crossing again...

I guess your wanted end result is a new variety from which you can collect seed and then grow the same plant again from year to year. Then I would say do one cross and select the nicest plant each year. Make sure it was self-pollinated and grow it again next year. After some seasons you will have a new variety you can call your own and hence name it after your mother...;)
This means of course that if you want certain characteristics you will have to grow a lot of plants to make sure one of them meets your standard. If one year nothing seems to be worth saving from, go back to seeds from last year, regrow them and hope for better luck.

Maybe I can describe the process of selecting by making an example from real life...:mouthonfire: I have been trying to isolate an F1-pepper for three generations now, so 2008 I will be growing an F4-plant:

I took seeds from a Turkish, red hot pepper with quite thick walls. First season growing seeds from the pod yielded 3 plants, which I selected at at early stage - I chose amongst the earliest to germinate and went for plants with compact growth which was unveiled after few weeks. Of the three selected plants, this I what I got:

Normann's Fat F2 #1: a thick fleshed, pointed sweet pepper around 7-9 centimeters long with modest amount of heat only present in the placental tissue. First pepper matured to red late August.

Normann's Fat F2 #2: comparing to plant #1 this was slightly larger, much hotter and matured mid September.

Normann's Fat F2 #3: this plant produced very long, slender, thick-fleshed, very hot peppers in great abundance. Maturation set in from mid August.

Today I am growing on seeds from plant#3 - last year I grew the F3, only one plant, which was a real winner to me, although it did not have as long fruits as I wanted, it was still very productive, very thick-fleshed and very hot with a good, quite sweet peppery taste as well...

Photos of the F3 plant here:
DSCN0361b.jpg


DSCN0362b.jpg


DSCN0321b.jpg


And some of an F4-plant:
DSCN0095b.jpg


DSCN0097b.jpg
 
Donnie said:
If you choose to pollinate say a F2-plant with one of the initial parents again - then you will have another F1 variety when growing those seeds. It will be like starting all over again - but with relatively more genetics present from the variety you selected for crossing again...
Click to expand...

I think there is a little more to it than that. I may be wrong but I thought you can only get a real hybrid by crossing two quite different varieties so crosing an F2 with an original parent would still be inbreeding in a way not hybridizing would it not?
 
POTAWIE said:
I think there is a little more to it than that. I may be wrong but I thought you can only get a real hybrid by crossing two quite different varieties so crosing an F2 with an original parent would still be inbreeding in a way not hybridizing would it not?
Click to expand...

Not my understanding, but I have been wrong before...:) But coming to think of it, I believe I once read that for F1 seed production you would need 2 stable varieties to make sure every seed turned out alike, but again, this wasn't the aim of making a cross...? - maybe a real expert could answer that question, like Dave DeWitt or Paul W. Bosland..?
 
I think we need to know a little more about pepper genetics. The traits you're selecting for may not operate on simple dominant/recessive patterns. Plus the plants that you're using as parents may have been stabilized by inbreeding to express recessive phenotypes. I've never looked to see how it all works with peppers, and it's been a long time since I had a genetics class, so I think the first thing I would want to do would be to do a serious google search for some information on pepper genetics.
 
My scorpion/bigbertha cross didn't work out. None of the crossed bells had any seeds in them. I had a feeling it wouldn't work.
 
Oh, forgot to make status on my crossings of this year...

It seems I have had success with the following crosses:

- Thai Orange x Small Wild from Mexico (annuum x annuum)
- Thai Orange x Goat's Weed (annuum x annuum)
- Small Wild from Mexico x Naga Morich (annuum x chinense)
- Small Wild from Mexico x Pimenta Morango (annuum x chinense)

By the way, I have found out that it should not matter which variety is used for mother and which is used for father. (Source: Mendel Museum - use link above)
 
Wow, 4 nice crosses I would love to try. The Thai Orange x Wild from Mexico is especially intriguing.

Do you have any pics of the pods from these 4 crosses? :lol:

Chris


Donnie said:
Oh, forgot to make status on my crossings of this year...

It seems I have had success with the following crosses:

- Thai Orange x Small Wild from Mexico (annuum x annuum)
- Thai Orange x Goat's Weed (annuum x annuum)
- Small Wild from Mexico x Naga Morich (annuum x chinense)
- Small Wild from Mexico x Pimenta Morango (annuum x chinense)

By the way, I have found out that it should not matter which variety is used for mother and which is used for father. (Source: Mendel Museum - use link above)
Click to expand...
 
cmpman1974 said:
Wow, 4 nice crosses I would love to try. The Thai Orange x Wild from Mexico is especially intriguing.

Do you have any pics of the pods from these 4 crosses? :lol:

Chris
Click to expand...

This cross is in fact the only one from which I have seeds left to offer, 5 pods developed... - so you may try it out if you'd like, just throw me a PM...;)

But to see pods you will just have to take a look at the mother variety as the crossing does not affect pod development...

Here's a link to photos of Orange Thai and Small Wild from Mexico...
http://s210.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/donnie_1978/capsicum_2007/

Here's a link to my website:
http://www.malusrustica.dk/
 
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