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UPDATET: How many Lumen does a High Power LED have?


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#1 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 04:13 PM

Hello,
I've taken a look at SatisLED,
I've have seen there: for example 3W High Power LED Blue Star Ermitter, it has 30-40 Lumen.....but the same 1W version has 20-30Lumen...
So heres my question:

Does the 3W version really have only 40Lumen?

or is it lumen/1watt???

Please help..


Thanks

HotPepper-Fan

Edited by HotPepper-Fan, 29 April 2012 - 09:25 AM.


#2 Beorn

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 05:00 PM

I just bought mine from www.satisled.com. They look good enough and the prices are quite low. This is also where Guillo1 got his LEDs. He started a very good post about LED pannels right here .

Edited by Beorn, 28 April 2012 - 05:04 PM.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. But I prefer the taste of hot peppers.


#3 smokemaster

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:55 AM

The highest I've found a 1 watt star LED is 80-90LM for red and 90-120lm. for blue(acording to the sellers data) sheet.
I've got star 3 watt ones that are up to 180-200LM.


Then you get the 10mm .5 and 1 watt LEDs that the .5watt ones are up to 80lm. and the 1 watt go up to a little over 100lm.
They run on from 100ma to 300ma in general.

BUT if you do the math for a lot of the LEDS according to the data they give you will be over driving the LED which means a very much shorter life.

A lot of the adds are publishing crap for data sheets.
Start out using less voltage and MA when wiring them up.

Example:
Blue 1 watt LED.
Says uses 3v - 3.3v at 350ma
3 X .35= 1.05watts , gonna let the smoke out eventually.Probably sooner than latter.

I'd start out using no more than 300ma at 3v.(.9watt which is still pushing it to it's max.)
Probably 280ma at less volts.
.28X3=.84watts.
If the LED doesn't look right try using 350ma and less volts so when you do the math you are still under 1 watt total.

If you are using a driver all you can do is put more LEDs in the string or a resistor between the driver and power supply using the parallel array wizard.

http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz


Multiply amps times watts to see what you are actually running your LED at.
Usually if an LED says 3v - 3.3v you don't want to run them on more than 3.1v.
You'll have to play around to see what works best for the LEDs you are using.
Find a MA that doesn't fry them and a voltage that lets them still be close enough to maybe put out the right wave length.

In general MA is brightness control and Volts (among other things) controls wavelength.
Never run your LEDS at max. watts or they will fry faster.

You'll notice that a lot of the drivers for 1 watt LEDS are 280ma.output for the 300ma LEDS and 320ma or so for the 350ma ones.
The 3 watt ones they run on 680ma drivers though the data sheets say they use 700ma.

Sometimes it's hard to find a happy medium for especially blue LEDS depending on your drivers output.

It seem that you can't run them at some of the ma. and voltages the data sheets say to.

Also since LEDS are different from LED to LED even from the same lot,it doesn't hurt to take a few measurements while building your strings.Just to see what they are actually running at.

Also if I remember right they measure an LEDs lumens at the point where they get the highest lumen reading from that specific LED.
I don't think they are all measured from the same distance away.

That is probably do to whatever degree angle the LED is.

A 100 degree LEDs that is rated at 50Lm. couldn't have been measured from as far away from the LED as a 40 degree angled one.
LEDS have a sweet spot where too close or far away reads different lumens.

It would be better for practical use if they measured all LEDS at the same distances away.

If your light panel has LEDs with different angled LEDS in it it might mean you'll need more or less of a wider angled LED in the panel so you have equal lumens of all colours or wave lengths.

Edited by smokemaster, 30 April 2012 - 01:16 AM.


#4 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

I haven't build a LED Panel yet, I'm planning to build some for next Year.

@smokemaster : Where have you seen the 1 watt star LED 80-90LM for red and 90-120lm for blue.??


Thanks

HotPepper-Fan

#5 smokemaster

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:05 AM

I started out going to E bay then E mailing the vendor.

I don't buy through E bay,it saves me a lot of $.Just use Pay Pal.
They'll go down at least 15% by not using E Bay.

Tell the vendor what you want and they'll usually have it made or find it.
I buy hundreds at a time and have a couple vendors that I use for different stuff.

To shop around I found a site called something like SeekIC/China IC suppliers...future electronic...

You register with them and they get in touch with a gazillion Chinese suppliers who all want to cut each others throat for a sale.

You fill out a form and tell them EXACTLY what you want.

In about 24 hrs. you'll get tons of different Chinese suppliers quoting you prices.
You'll get quotes until you tell them to stop.

The only problem I've had with Chinese LEDS is when I overdrive them - crap for data sheets.

They do put out the Lumens they are rated at,a lot of times more.

You just have to do the math when figuring out your strings.
If you think 5 per string is cool start out with 6 or 7.See how they look and how warm they get,check them with a multi meter...

Like I said above,run 350ma LEDS at 280-300ma etc to start out.
I have a multimeter with a LUX meter in it so I can check the juice and LUX before I assemble the final panel.

Don't go for the first DIRT CHEEP quote.
About day 2 you'll get cheaper ones.
Most are all selling the same things.

A lot are made for name brand U.S. companies that if you buy them from China or Hong Kong they cost 1/10th the price.
I usually pay under $1.00 each for star LEDs,around $.75-$.80 and half that for 10mm LEDs.

BUT I buy 100+ (more like 500-800) stars or a couple thousand 10mm LEDs at a time.
I've been doing biz with one of these guys for 3 or more years.

I don't give out my suppliers names out any more.

I did once and the guy gave the China supplier crap because I told him my price and the supplier wouldn't sell that guy stuff for the same price I got the same stuff at.(I always buy larger quantities...).

The supplier got strange and started jerking me around - sending different stuff than what I ordered,not wanting to make LEDs in the wave lengths I needed ,charging me service fees on my credit card etc.

I ended up having to find another supplier,which was very hard to do.
You have to establish a relationship with these guys or you won't get the good stuff at a great price.
It takes either a lot of small purchases or a couple larger ones before they break out the good stuff at good prices.

Without even looking very hard I saw these - 60-70lm 1 watt red,Blue 60-80lm.

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3f0ffbf4e9

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find the ones that are a little higher lumen like I posted about above.

660nm you won't find yet in higher than about 50-60lm and they are expensive.
Supposed to be harder to make.
I think I saw some 660nm in 80lm but they were a new product and above $1.00 each.
I read somewhere they just came out recently.Until last year 660 never were more than 30-35lm.Most were 25-30lm max.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cbf3c79f3

I've just searched E Bay a little.
They don't seem to have the higher Lumen,new stuff for sale there right now.

I haven't bought from a supplier on E bay in a while.

The China IC search got me better prices.
Translators suck though. :)
The higher Lumen 80-100lm , 1 watt LEDS just came out last year.
A supplier E mailed me about them in Sept or so last year.

He knew I didn't like the 660nm LEDs in 35Lumens...
I get a lot of E mails from these guys whenever they get a new product for anything I've bought from them.They keep good records and stay in touch pretty often.
highest I saw on E bay was about 60-80lm for red or blue stars.

I've been using a lot of 10mm LEDS lately.
Cheaper and brighter.
Easier to assemble on a perf board.
No heat sinks etc to mess with.
Some could probably use a fan but I haven't used any kind of cooling yet but my oldest 10mm panel has only run 1 or 2 seasons so far.
They will probably need cooling if I box them up in a case though.

Edited by smokemaster, 30 April 2012 - 09:06 AM.


#6 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

A big thank for the information @smokemaster.


thanks and greetings

HotPepper-Fan

#7 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 04:09 AM

@Smokemaster

I've looked at: SeekIC, but to get a quote I must enter a Part number.

What is a Part number, and how I can find it??

thanks
HotPepper-Fan

#8 smokemaster

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:52 AM

Put any companies LED # in there.

If you put a name brand they will sell you that brand or their knockoff.Whatever they have.
I wouldn't count on the ones labled as a name brand being that brands product either.
I don't buy name brands.They charge more and it's probably a knockoff or rejected shipment to that company for whatever reason.
I don't think they really sell LEDs that the company says are made in the U.S. from China/Hong Kong.
Can't see a U.S. company shipping stuff to China but can see it going the other way...

Most of the guys answering with quotes will offer all kinds of variations that are what they sell - Knock offs or stuff the name brand company didn't want ,overstock or whatever.

Most Have a part # that they gave the LED so it only means something to that company.

A lot of the Chinese companies use part #'s like this one for stars - LED1w440 (Led 1 watt 440nm) or BLED1w470 ( blue LED 1 watt 470nm) or (red)RLED1W660 or LED1w660.

10mm - 10-w40r160000 (10mm ,1w ,40 degree angle ,red , 160000mcd) or 10 - 1w40b250000 (10mm , 1watt , 40 degree angle , Blue , 250000mcd)

Use an E mail address that you don't depend on for other stuff.These guys will flood your mailbox with quotes.
It would have been a hassle sorting my messages if I'd have used my regular E mail address.Most would have ended up as spam in the spam folder.
I don't know if the U.S. is different to the Chinese than Germany but they sent a ton of E mails.
3/4 will be the same prices but the rest will easily be half or less than the first quotes are.
HAGGLE/BARGAIN with them.Tell them another company has the same price but pays shipping or even that you just won't buy for their price (no matter what that price is).
NEVER take their first price.
You'll either not hear back from them or get a much lower price.
Tell them you are looking for a new supplier because your last Chinese supplier became unreliable.
If they think you are making LED products and might buy from them latter in large amounts you'll get a better price.
ALWAYS tell them what you did or didn't like about the shipment you just received.
If you didn't like something it's usually good for a hundred free LEDS and 1Watt resistors on a next order.
Never tell them that your order is the first and the last one or they won't sell cheap.

That just about covers Chinese Dumpster diving 101. :)

#9 sosl0w

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:51 PM

http://www.lumigrow....lumens-lux-par/

#10 smokemaster

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:45 AM

So outside of a lab,what good is that information?
It says Lm. , Lux and PAR are no good.

A Lux meter and an old CD (spectrometer) tell me all I need to know.
The CD is just to see differences in different LEDS for fun.

If my LEDS put out enough LUX (since that is what I measure all my panels with)to make my plants happy , that is all that matters to me.
If x Lux works them I make all my stuff put out at least that amount of LUX.

The LEDs must be putting out enough light in the right wave lengths in the right combinations etc. that my plants like.
Doesn't matter what the actual LUX,LUMEN or PAR is in reality.
Any form of measure gets me in the ballpark.

It doesn't matter in general if my panel puts out 35,000lux,35,000Lumens or whatever PAR(whatever unit of measure you choose to use)as long as you use the same yard stick every time and the panels work growing happy plants.

If my plants like what I'm giving them it's all good.

Like i said above,people like making things more complicated than they are.
Especially when they are using some instrument that nobody has or has access to or uses in general except in a lab.

Most LEDS aren't exactly the same so you'd have to test a lot of them with that do dad(Spectroradiometers)to get enough LEDS that are the exact same (if it's even possible which I doubt),if you were into being exact, you'd have to measure every LED in your panel.

I think if an LED is rated at 1 watt,80lm,660nm or whatever, it's going to be near that.

Close enough for pepper plants to grow under.
Some might be exactly as advertised while others aren't.
No big deal.

Outside of a lab,in a controlled experiment I don't see why anyone would need to know exactly what their LEDS use or put out.

Kinda like using a micrometer to measure your fire wood as you cut it up.
If the stick fits in the fire place and burns ,it's all good.

#11 sosl0w

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:55 AM

So outside of a lab,what good is that information?
It says Lm. , Lux and PAR are no good.

A Lux meter and an old CD (spectrometer) tell me all I need to know.
The CD is just to see differences in different LEDS for fun.

If my LEDS put out enough LUX (since that is what I measure all my panels with)to make my plants happy , that is all that matters to me.
If x Lux works them I make all my stuff put out at least that amount of LUX.

The LEDs must be putting out enough light in the right wave lengths in the right combinations etc. that my plants like.
Doesn't matter what the actual LUX,LUMEN or PAR is in reality.
Any form of measure gets me in the ballpark.

It doesn't matter in general if my panel puts out 35,000lux,35,000Lumens or whatever PAR(whatever unit of measure you choose to use)as long as you use the same yard stick every time and the panels work growing happy plants.

If my plants like what I'm giving them it's all good.

Like i said above,people like making things more complicated than they are.
Especially when they are using some instrument that nobody has or has access to or uses in general except in a lab.

Most LEDS aren't exactly the same so you'd have to test a lot of them with that do dad(Spectroradiometers)to get enough LEDS that are the exact same (if it's even possible which I doubt),if you were into being exact, you'd have to measure every LED in your panel.

I think if an LED is rated at 1 watt,80lm,660nm or whatever, it's going to be near that.

Close enough for pepper plants to grow under.
Some might be exactly as advertised while others aren't.
No big deal.

Outside of a lab,in a controlled experiment I don't see why anyone would need to know exactly what their LEDS use or put out.

Kinda like using a micrometer to measure your fire wood as you cut it up.
If the stick fits in the fire place and burns ,it's all good.


The point of the article is that people continue to try and build things based off false information. If I was going to build an LED lighting system I would want to know the right information to go off of so that I know what i'm purchasing will work the best.

Its not that you have to measure each LED light, you simply need to understand that you can't base what your buying off of the amount of lumens PAR or LUX. Because those are all false readings that manufacturers use to jack up the prices of there LEDS because people are un informed.

The only thing you really need to be worried about is the range of light the LED is putting off, the wattage of each LED, and the quality of said LED.

I'm not saying i'm an expert, but i have done a tremendous amount of reading on the subject and I currently use 4 commerical LED lights in my own setup.

This thread has a ton of great information in it about DIY LED lights. http://thehotpepper....iy-led-fixture/

#12 smokemaster

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:56 AM

I searched Spectroradiometers.

It looks like it generally measures all the wave lengths a light source puts out using the amount of lumens each is and tells you what percentage each wave length is and accordingly divides the watts used to produce each wave length to tell what watt per wave length that that light source is.

Actually it looks like an all in 1 meter.
Can tell you LUX,LM,and Par for different lighting applications for each wave length produced by the source,not just wave length percentages.
But maybe the one I looked at was a deluxe model or something.
It looks like it can give you LUX,PAR and LM. for each individual wave length...uses watts as a measure...
Watts per meter etc.


More snake oil salesman fodder in my opinion since I see most nobody either using that instrument or publishing data from using it on their grow panels or LEDS.

You are still misleading people saying Watts matters when buying an LED or Panel since they don't have access to the info that the Spectroradiometer measures.
A 30 watt LED panel uses 30 watts,it's no indication of wavelength lumen or anything else.

They aren't advertised as 10watts of 660nm,1watt of 430nm etc.Which is what that meter tells you.

Watts still is a unit of measure found by multiplying Amps. X Volts.
Not a unit for measuring Lm,Wave Length or anything else.

The only tools the average person has to go by are Wave length the seller says their LEDS/panel are,the Lumens they are rated at and the watts the whole panel uses to run.

I don't know how much of each red wave length a specific LED puts out in any specific wave length but a CD tells me if the red or Blue band is bigger than the other color bands.

I'm in the ball park.
If I measure the LUX under my plants I can tell that the light my panel is putting out is bright enough in general.

Using those 2 measuring devices tells me pretty much all I need to know.Or have access to as far as measuring my LEDS.

I know already that any LED puts out varying amounts of higher and lower wave length of light also so if I can't find LEDs with a specific wave length I've probably got it anyway.If it's close to the main/dominant wave length of that LED.

Then there is the fact that Drivers don't put out the same out put 100% all the time and LEDS are VERY sensitive to voltage changes as far as wave length is concerned.
A very slight change in voltage throws the reading by that do dad off ,gotta take a reading using your grow enviornment to really know what you have going on.
660 might not be dominant anymore.Depends how dominant it was in the first place.Was it 1% higher to make it dominant or 50% higher which would make the sellers readings still good.
Like with car adds,your mileage may vary...

Add to that LEDS are also heat sensitive as far as output goes and a hot day or room temp. throws everything off.

So in my opinion,all a person can really do,outside of a lab,is stay in the ballpark.

Thus making almost any way you want to measure your panel isn't that much different than any other.

From what I've read the Spectroradiometer is mainly used to measure light for laptops,room lighting etc. to design light sources that need to meet certain specs. without wasting energy or meet specific requirements.

Not that important for growing peppers.
Plants don't generally mind if they get 660nm or 661nm.

It does sound like a better tool, if you have it,to design any kind of lighting that has to meet certain specs. or the light source won't work at all for that application.

But the fact is,right now not many people use that do dad when they design grow panels ,so unless you are buying from a specific company ,you are out of luck.

If you are making your own panels it's just more useless info unless you want to crowbar open your wallet and buy the do dad.

I think in general for the DIY er the thing to do in general is get as many wave lengths in plant usable wave lengths in as high a Lumen rating as you can find and use them.

Also try and get as many of the same wave length rated LEDs from as many different lots and companies as you can.Not all 660nm LEDS or whatever are the same.

My point is,I want to cover as many wave lengths of plant usable light as I can.
Different lots of LEDS will put out a lot of wave lengths in lesser amounts that you can't buy a specific LED in for those wave lengths.
But plants might use them.
With other LEDs puting out these wave lengths there seems to be enough of them combined ,in the right amount to grow my peppers.

I try to get as close to real sunlights plant usable wave lengths as possible.
It's not possible,I don't think ,but I can get enough different wave lengths that my plants grow pretty well so far.

To overcome any light penetration problems with bigger plants I put LEDs both above,horizontally and vertically around my plants.
5mm and 10mm LEDS work good for that.5mm are dirt cheep but you have to use a ton of them.

A 3X4 perf board holds 100-120 of them and takes an hour to solder.
So far 5mm LEDS come in the most wave lengths and angles too.
They aren't very bright and you need a lot of them...

I also like 1 watt LEDS because I can put as many different wavelengths as I can find on a 8X8 or 16x16in sheet of 1/8th inch thick Aluminium and not have heat problems or have to cool them.

3 watt ones I have to space them farther apart and that means less wave lengths will overlapspamus I have to put a fan for cooling them.

There is a method to my madness.

I think the more wave lengths on a panel the better.
At least my plants grow better under a dozen wave lengths than they did under 4 - 6 wave lengths.

My thinking is to use as many different wave lengths between 400nm and 480nm Blue and as many between 615nm and 680nm as I can find in each panel.
I read about yellows etc. but when I look at my CD I see those colours in lesser amounts being given off so I think I'm covered there.
I also read that LEDS in certain plant usable wave lengths put out some UV and infa red which they say plants can use but in very small amounts.
So they probably get enough of those wave lengths already,no need to put LEDS for them on my panels.

Actually I've read that as far as UV goes,you should not look at some blue leds because there is enough uv produced to cause eye damage from constant exposure.

10mm are what I've been playing with lately.
More expensive but as bright as 1 watt stars.

Easier to assemble on a 7X12 perf board.
Covers a LOT more area too.
Only problem is they don't come in many wave lengths.but that is quickly changing.

Doesn't look like we agree on the lum. watts thing but it's always interesting to discuss different points of view etc.
It's never a waste of time to discuss things it often leads to new ideas.

EDIT:
Yikes!
I just found a meter that looks palm sized for measuring chlorophyll.
A measly $1295.
It was suggested as an instrument to go with your $4000 - $5500 do dad for measuring your light source.
$4000+ buys a lot of LEDS.

As a side note.
Do you happen to have a link to how much of each plant usable wave length is in the sun or how much of each wave length a plant needs or uses?
Not just pot plants.All plants in general.
I assume you do or even knowing the amount of each wave length your light source puts out wouldn't matter.
Wouldn't know what you need of any of them in your grow light.

Only thing I've found was low red to far red is 1.2 - 1 in sunlight.

Never found anything on the specific different wave lengths.

Nasa used a 6-8 to 1 ratio of red to blue in their experiments and used white too.Don't know which K the white LEDs were.

How much of each wave length seems hard to find.
All I see out there are people hawking their goods saying their wave length combo is best with no real data to support it.
Just a bunch of fan letters in general.
A few places quote choice parts of some study, out of context , but that's about it as far as what I can see.

Also it looks like most of the do dads that are made specifically are for LED manufacturers so they can test a few of their lots of LEDs to see if they got the dominant wave length right.
The do dad with the most bells and whistles had to be plugged into your computer.
It must be REALLY expensive,you gotta write for a price.
That usually means it's so expensive they gotta talk you into buying it as opposed to the ones with the price next to the specs. :)

Edit #2

I just checked out the sites products and they brag about the PAR of their panel/grow light.

http://www.lumigrow....led-grow-light/

Full PAR Spectrum-what the heck is that?

OOOPS PAR again.

http://www.lumigrow....led-grow-light/

OH NO PAR again.

http://www.lumigrow....ed-strip-light/

From the same guys who say anything other than watt is crap.

If it looks like snake oil,feels like snake oil and tastes like snake oil it just might be snake oil.
I hear snake oil is really good for lubrication to get $ to slide right out of your wallet real easy.
The more $ you charge,the more snake oil you need to sell the product.

I'm not saying their lighting is junk.
Just that it probably isn't any different than a lot of other companies out there.
They are selling a product and advertise or print whatever makes them look better for selling said product.

They use watts as they should be used in their data about their grow lights.

Compare watts used by other light sources to produce X amount of PAR.

They actually don't say what the products PAR is,just that some gobbledy gook about PAR spectrum.Sounds like nonsence/saleman speak to me.

They never say,that all LEDS at the factory are tested with your do dad to check for quality as far as making sure their different lots of LEDS puts out the right/same wavelength as dominant and that actually the average person can't find info whether that batch of LEDS was dominant by 1% or 50% (whatever) which would be the only reason you would want to know the percentage of a wave length a light source puts out using however many watts to do it.

The only thing your do dad does is make sure a light source is up to specs because it can zero in on specific wave lengths and tell you the watts it takes to produce that wave length in that specific light source.

Maybe the light meters aren't as accurate that measures Lumens , Lux or PAR but since they use PAR you can say that PAR is accurate enough.
The only stuff I've read about Lux etc. being inaccurate is from people selling something and miss represent everything else.
They never say Lm,Lux or par are wrong.Just that the meters can't measure some of the wave lengths that LEDS CAN put out.
They all use generalities-High red High Blue or whatever.

As far as I can tell they might be great at measuring any Wave length a plant uses,just not some of the ones an LED puts out but isn't of concern as far as growing plants in general.

Common sense tells you that depending on the quality of a LED if it's rated at 660nm as dominant it'll be at least 50+% that wave length.

So if you want to turn it into watts you just divide the watts your led is rated at by 50%.If the LED puts out more than 50.1% you are just better off as far as that wave length is concerned,the lED is more efficient at putting out that wave length.

From what I understand,Most LEDS if not all can only vary 2nm +/- from the dominant wave length depending on physical and electrical variations in how it is made.
They all put out other wave lengths but in much smaller amounts.
A cd with a LED in a dark room will tell you that.


They ( company pushing the snake oil) might(which I doubt) test their LEDS so Dominant means 70% dominant. and then can claim their LEDS are better than Lets say a Chinese made one that is only 50% dominant in whatever wave length.
But you don't know.
They are probably like any other grow light supplier.They use whatever LEDS their supplier or suppliers give them.
And let the advertising Dept. sell them in any way that works best.


Can't dazzle them with brilliance,baffle them with B.S.
The more I read about your do dad, it is only good for stuff that needs to have specific applications for commercial use where the wave lengths HAVE to be exact.

Peppers don't fall in that catagory.
They aren't worth the cash to mess with hassling to give them premium lighting.
Since Pot in CA. is legal and the cash it brings in is big.I could see a person wanting to give their plants perfect growing conditions.
I only grow non bell peppers,nothing else.

They aren't that fussy about having only specific wave lengths.
They bud whether they are under Fluorescent light or 660nm LEDS.
Yes they might do better under certain wave lengths but it's a crap shoot.
Manzanos really love 650nm - 662nm but other peppers like more 625-627nm.Some like lots of 470nm others don't care.
Some don't care what they get the most of as far as what I've grown in the last 3+ years.

A side note,did you Know that to get white light LEDS combine red,blue and green to get high lumen white LEDS?

http://focs.eng.uci....llumination.pdf

Kinda cool read even though I don't get all of the tech stuff 100%.
But it does make me think about using white LEDS as a possible light source for grow lights.
Problen I see is most LEDS are too high or low K to cover what I can get from using red and blues.
I really think it'll end up being a supply and demand type thing.
Once the producers get enough demand for LEDS that are in the 5000-6500 K range they will make them.
Right now I see LEDS in the 2000-3500k or 6500-7500k range.
Both aren't in the sweet spot that fluoros now produce for a lot less $.

I hope you don't think I'm getting on you for your ideas etc.
I'm not trying to piss you off.
Ya I've been told I'm too blunt or whatever.
I do enjoy our exchange of ideas.
I see things as I see them and post accordingly.
I'm not trying to mess with you or your view of what you base your ideas on.
The purpose of this post is to exchange ideas that WILL open doors that will help people get an idea about how to look for things to form their own opinions.
My ideas are worth just about what it cost anyone to read them,right or wrong,judged by the reader doesn't matter as long as it caused the reader to search out more info about this subject.

I only know or think I know stuff mostly from Trial and error.
I don't consider I've wasted a cent because I've learned from assembling my LEDS.Reassembled a lot of them too when the panel sucked that I made.
All LEDS I've bought were re used again for other panels.

I am not into buying a growlight.

I want to build one that works for ANYTHING I want to use it for.
It has taken me 3 years but I have found what works for the way I need them to work the way I need them to work.
I have full grown plants that mostly get LED light.

It's not as hard to do with LEDS as People/so called experts say it is.

One thing I found was that LEDS can be too close.
Since I use a lot more Wave lengths per panel,the sweet spot where everything overlaps is a lot farther away than I read about on the net.
Yes 10mm LEDS with tighter angles are probably better for distance but with 1 watt stars 18 inches is the least I want my LEDS away from my plants.
That is using 50 1 watt LEDS on a 8in X 16in. sheet of metal.
Your mileage WILL vary,if you use higher quality LEDS you'll get better results.
I buy only Cheap Chinese or Hong Kong LEDs(which are probably the same stuff a lot of the other people are selling on their american made panels).

I don't take info from a site that sells LEDS for growing plants as anything more than something to check out as far as science or whatever you want to call it goes.
Yes a lot of the commercial sales pitches have given me a lot of clues as far as what to research but they never or almost never gave all the facts about anything unless it sells their product.
Not everything I read on the net is fact until I find and read the research they are mostly miss representing to sell their product most of the time.

Edited by smokemaster, 19 May 2012 - 09:30 PM.


#13 sosl0w

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:13 PM

Holy wall of text dude.

I can't even respond to all of that lol.

You have a lot of valid points but your missing the point I am saying about WATTS. And why a lot of the commercial manufacturers mention WATTS.

WATTS PER LED is important for penetration purposes.

For example. If you built a 30w LED light using 30 1w LEDs. Your light is running at 30watts. The problem with said light is that because EACH LED is only 1watt. Your light
will only be able to penetrate up to lets say 12 inches. Meaning in order for your plant to grow anything out of a 12inch range from your plant will not receive enough light to grow.

Now, with that said that doesn't mean a 1w LED light is bad. It can be great for starting seeds and growing them to a stage where you can then transfer them outside.

Now lets take that exact same example and use 3w LEDS. You now are only using 10 3w LEDS. Spaced out slightly more to fill up the same amount your 30 1 w leds took up.
You are still using 30watts of power, but have less LEDS. The difference here is that the 3watt LEDS emit a stronger source of light increasing the amount of penetration. So your 3watt LEDS can penetrate a canopy up to 24 inches.

Now you have a light that will penetrate and provide a plant with the needed light up to 24 inches, allowing you to grow something to probably full cycle depending on the size of the plant.

So if you take that same example and use 5w LEDS you then increase the penetration even more to 36 inches. So you are now capable of growing almost anything to full cycle with no problems. This is the reason all commercial LED retailers, or atleast the good ones, are selling lights with 5w LEDs in them. And the reason they mention watts so much.

Your not measuring light spectrum with watts your measuring penetration.

Does that make sense?

I'm not trying to argue that you can't measure light any other way but a specto, i'm just stating that WATTs are extremely important when it comes to LED lights. As well as the spectrum of the LEDS.

As far as the proper ratio of LEDS red to blue, and what is the proper amount of each in a light. I have no idea. I do know that the commercial light I am using is growing my plants great. I have a Mustard Hab that looks fabulous. But it isn't anywhere near full grown yet so I can't really vouch for them quite yet.

Anyways. There is also a thread on this forum where a member used one of the lights from the vendor in the link that i linked to you where he grew 2 pepper plants to full cycle with no problem. So I know that the lumigrow light is a legit light. It works and they know there stuff.

Edited by sosl0w, 05 May 2012 - 03:14 PM.


#14 smokemaster

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:22 PM

Here you go.
These guys can actually test your setup for a price.
Probably design lighting systems for commercial buildings etc. but offer to test stuff for the general public.
I don't know if they want to actually go to your greenhouse,per say.Might do everything via computer calcks after seeing what you are using for lighting.
But you probably can send them a home made panel and find out what it puts out - wave length percentages,lumens,lux or whatever you wanted.

http://www.lightlabo...CFQ1jhwodThY12A

Didn't read what they charge etc.
Just looked for a place like them near where I live.

I'm still not convinced a 1 watt LEDS that is rated at 80 lm. is not as good as a 3 watt 80lm. led,same angle.
I think the LED co. use 5 watt LEDS because they are higher Lumen.

I've only compared 1watt and 3 watt LEDS on similar panels.
Both had the same Lumen,angle and number of LEDs per panel.

Both were the tested from the same distance from the LUX meter under the plants.

Maybe if I didn't test both LEDS panels the same it might be different,I don't know.

Maybe 3 watt ones could possibly carry their lumens farther but I never tested them differently than each other.
I was comparing them under the same conditions I need for growing my plants in my limited space.

When I first started playing with LEDs I used 3 watt ones.
When I made the same panel but one had 3 watt LEDs and the other had 1 watt LEDs (same # of LEDS etc.) there wasn't any difference in penetration between the 2 as long as the LEDs angle and lm. was the same.
Using a Lux meter.
Tighter angle,better penetration all around is a given,no matter what LED you are using in general.

That is why I'm playing with 290,000mcd (106lm +/- at 40 degree-can't really calculate it exactly,mcd-lumens because of angle and led issues in the led itself.Wider the angle the less accurate the calculation will be in general).

I purposely use 1 watt LEDS to have more LEDS per Panel of different wave lengths that I couldn't have if I used less LEDS per panel.
Also more LEDS means more Lumens per Panel in general.
As I said above.
If I put 3 watt LEDs as close together (so all the different wave lengths overlap properly) they would get too hot and fry.

That probably is why NASA had to water cool their LEDS.
Also that they design their grow to be in an extremely closed enviornment(something in space) and the heat can't just be fanned away.Can't pump it out a window or vent...
It probably would cause heat problems over time in the whole space craft or building on the planet after a while.

It's not a Lumen.penetration problem,heat is my concern mostly.
I like not having to cool my panels and that I can surface mount them on anything and not take up valuable grow space with a 4 inch thick or thicker light.
My panels are less than 1in thick.

It's that higher watt LEDs just don't work for the panels I want to make and use.

I'm convinced that with LEDS a lot of the problems with,especially the cheaper and earlier grow lights is that they don't cover enough wave lengths that plants use in general.
Assuming they aren't the panels sold as a gazillion watt ones that are a bunch of 5mm,low lumen,wide angled LEDs.

I've played with similar Lumen panels with only 430nm.470nm.627nm and 660nm and they don't work as well as the same panel size with the same lumen/Lux output as one with several different wave lengths that had 4+ times the different wave lengths in it.

To me more wave lengths works better.
Also I think different wave lengths , of even the same colour but different wave length/nm,penetrate more than another.

Something I've seldom seen is using verticle panels with horizontal ones.

I started doing the verticle thing after seeing I couldn't overlap enough wave lengths evenly on just 1 panel.

I can only get about 5 evenly distributed wave lengths per panel in general.

That is also where 90-100 degree angles come in handy,more LED overlap.
Closer spaced LEDS makes up for some of the loss of lumens using wide angled leds as opposed to tighter angled ones.

I put whatever ones I can fit on the horizontal panels and the rest on verticle ones.

Since about 2 ft. is a good distance for my shelves (18in. X 48in X 20+in) I can put 3 sets of different combinations of wave lengths on my plants.
1 set above,1 set behind and 1 set on each end.
I haven't set up the shelves yet but have done experiments with 3 different panels on 1 mature plant(3 seasons old under LEDS with stray room light).
1, 8in x 16in panel (54LEDS)2 , 5 1/2in X 16 in panals(30 LEDS each)
Seems to work pretty good so far on a 3ft. x 3ft. very tight plant.

I have no way to prove it other than stuff I've read ( and watching my plants grow)about different wave lengths,due to their nature,just can keep their brightness farther away from the source.Tighter or more stretched out wave patterns...

I didn't say that the company made bad panels.

I do think they do use a lot of "creative" sales pitches to sell their product.
Ya I was pulling your chain a little... :)

They have to , to be able to get those kind of prices for their products on a regular basis.
$1000 to light a 3 X 3 or 4 X 4 area.

I do have a 3ft. X 3ft. Galopagoense that doesn't get enough light from other sources to matter that is under 1 watt leds.
The 3 panels I wrote about above.
Cost under $200. total,which if they don't last the hours they are supposed to ,is still way too expensive.

It's full of pods right now.
Very happy plant.

#15 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:42 AM

Can you show a picture of the plant?

greetings
HotPepper-Fan

#16 smokemaster

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:04 PM

Photo Bucket doesn't like me these days after the last update of linux,firefox and google chrome.

I've posted pics of it so google galopagoense pics by smokemaster might find you one of an older pic.

Edited by smokemaster, 07 May 2012 - 08:04 PM.


#17 HotPepper-Fan

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

@Smokemaster

I searched at SeekIC for example: #LED1w440, LED1w440, #LED440,... and other.

But I didn't find anything :(

Please helpp.

greetings HotPepper-Fan

#18 Beorn

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 04:30 PM

I'm done with my pannel if you want to see what it looks like ... here!

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. But I prefer the taste of hot peppers.


#19 Mad Scientist

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:16 AM

The point of the article is that people continue to try and build things based off false information.


Yeah - The most common error people make is comparing lumen-values of different wavelength-leds. - To understand why that's a problem, you have to understand how lumen-values are calculated: For single-wavelength LEDs that's quite easy: All you have to do is look at the the luminosity function (it's the first plot at http://en.wikipedia....nosity_function). Look at the (black) curve at the 650nm region. - That's what's used to calculate lumen values from radiation power. What you see is, that we're at the edge of the curve.

Let me give you an example: Let's say we have two LEDs, both have 1 watt of power OUTPUT (I'm talking about the radiant power output here, not the electric power input) - one at 650nm, one at 680nm. - The 680nm one will register as having only a third of the lumens as the 650nm one. And since lux just means lm/m2 lux will give you the same misleading idea: that the 650nm LEDs output mor light than the 680nm ones, although that actually isn't the case.

Edited by Mad Scientist, 16 May 2012 - 03:21 AM.


#20 smokemaster

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 10:42 PM

So,what possible value is that to a DIYer?

You have no idea what percentage your LEDs are dominant by.

Your 650nm might only be 51% dominant while the 680nm might be 80%.
No LED is the same.
You can probably get different results from 3 different 650nm LEDs and 3 different 680nm LEDs.
They vary a LOT even made by the same company ,They vary a lot from Lot to Lot .
You'd need to have to have the data sheet for each lot of LEDs you buy to be able to use the info you linked to.

No LED actually only puts out 1 wave length.

Just the physical aspects of the chips coating and how it was applied makes that near impossible.
Then with even slight changes in your power supply etc. you can only guess the stuff you are using as a blanket set of facts that cover every Led made in that wave length.

Since you never have access to the data you would need to make your link above usefull in reality for some one outside of a lab or an LED manufacturer you are just muddying up the waters.

You are saying a 1 watt LED that puts out 80LM. is of less value than a 3watt led that puts out 80 super lm. somehow.
Since you don't know how dominant any LED is that you are buying.You don't really know whether the 680nm or 650nm is that different than each other.

Watts is still a measure of electricity.

Calling it radiant watts only tells you how much juice that LED uses to make that much light in that specific wave length.

IF all LEDs were the same in any specific (dominant) wave length ,by all manufacturers your above data might be more than something to read but in general of no value to a person buying a factory made panel or to an LED manufacturer for quality control.
If they start publishing their LED test results,lot by lot , then you could use that data to buy specific LEDs for grow lights that actually put out the same wave length,lumens etc. in your link.

So it still boils down to the average person only knows ,to a certain extent that they bought a whatever watt LED,in x dominant wave length and at X volts and MA. it puts out that many lumens it was tested at +/-.

No matter what any grow light vendor says it's only going to be what they think will sell their product,Period.
99% of it is out of context or pure BS.

They can print all kinds of links/articles,whatever, like above ,but the fact is,I'd bet none actually know anywhere near the actual LED stats on the stuff they actually buy.
They order whatever LED in wave length,watt and Lumen they want.
They have no idea of the stats and probably could care less.50% or 80% dominant all look the same to the customers eye.
They use whatever LED is cost effective for them to turn a profit.

The more tech looking crap they can put out of context in their adds,the better...

It's like saying my car has a 20gal. gas tank and bigger engine so I can go farther than your car with a smaller gas tank and smaller engine... bigger isn't better all the time.Unless of coarse you are selling the bigger car.




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