Listing Ingredients - hot pepper names

Lucky Dog Hot Sauce

Lucky Dog Hot Sauce

ok, so with all the drama lately, I've got to ask:

I have a new recipe that I've prototyped, deemed worthy, and tabbed "Black Label".

I use "Moruga Scorpion (Red) peppers" in it. That is the name I was given when I purchased the peppers from a reputable grower.

Will there be a problem if I list this as an ingredient in my sauce? What would make it a problem? Does the grower I purchased the peppers from have to be bonnafied somehow? Do i need certification from that grower to indicate that they sold me true Moruga Scorpion peppers?

I've seen other sauces that use Morugas, so I've assumed not. I have no issues listing "Habanero" or "Jalapeno" or "Serrano" or "Cayenne".

What say you, growers? Y'all seem pretty concerned about this claptrap, so I figured I'd best ask before I invest a bunch of my hard earned scratch making something tasty out of those wicked little bastards.
 
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I think that the Red Savina situation is probably the most relevant, and Salsa Lady's been in the game long enough to probably give you the best insights from her experience.

As far as I'm aware, there's no applicable license for the term "Moruga/Morouga," and that anything sold as such is in the public domain, including general descriptors such as "red/green/yellow/chocolate." Ethically, it might be best to seek out the origins of Moruga/Morouga. I don't know who or where originated the classification, but it's probably best to have their blessing.
 
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So you're saying yes, I need to take it upon myself, the end consumer who's spending $$$ on bulk peppers to uh, track lineage? And beyond the grower I'm purchasing from? Wow.

If that's the case, growers can all have fun watching their pods go to seed while my $ sits in the bank because I'm not gonna bother with all that. I believe that's called the law of diminishing returns...

Just sayin.

I understand what you're saying, but honestly - like I said, I'm buying peppers from a reputable grower for the quality. If they call them Morugas, why would I call them anything else?

Appreciate you taking the time to respond though. Interested in other's responses as well.

:cheers:
 
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This might be interesting to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Variety_Protection_Act

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems mostly applicable to growers. As a tertiary value-add consumer it might not be applicable to you at all, but I imagine that patents and trademarks could present an issue with your labeling. I wasn't able to find any trademarks related to the Moruga/Morouga, so you're probably in the clear legally speaking.
 
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I'm also not a lawyer, but I'm reasonably certain that any liability would fall onto the grower who sold me the peppers and represent a name as X, Y, Z "flavor "of pepper. Whatever name I purchase it under I am legally obligated in fact to list on the label of my hot sauce. In fact, that's why I have to get a "spec sheet" for any ingredients that I use… It's not just peppers, but onions, carrots, garlic, vinegar, et cetera.
 
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[background=rgb(255, 244, 228)] I have no issues listing "Habanero" or "Jalapeno" or "Serrano" or "Cayenne"[/background]
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curious, why then would you make an exception with the red scorpion and not just label it "red scorpion peppers"?. why wouldn't you stay consistent, you would have to label all the various varieties of jalapeno, cayenne and habs?

what is making this one pepper variety standout that it requires isolation name on the label. i bet the makers of the cheap crap sauces that i buy and label the ingredient "red chilli peppers" don't care where their red peppers came from or if they were hybridized.

of course, it is impossible to compare the quality and the consistency of your sauces to something out of a box store with a white label marked hot sauce.

adopting this style of label ingredient naming may then also assist in future products like 7 pot, wiri, peri etc... even rocoto, manzano if such is in the making.

good luck and keep delivering great products.
 
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my .02 ---

When I started making shelf stable sauces in 2001, extracts were how you got the extreme heat and Red Savina habaneros were the Hottest Chile In the World. Red Savina's were (trademarked? or Registered?) and commanded a premium price. From what I understand, there are many Carribean Red Habaneros that have the same heat as Red Savs without the extra cost of growing a registered/licensed chile.

Right now, I'm having trouble getting Red Savina Habs for my sauces, and it's a real PITA since my labels all read Red Savina, so if I substitute another Carib Red, I'm technically out of compliance.

As far as I understand, Moruga is a variety name for a t-scorp chile, like Billy Biker is a varietal name for a jalapeno. There are no restrictions to using the name Moruga. You don't need to list it as "Moruga" if you don't want. You could just list it as T-Scorp so next year, when another hotter t-scorp comes out, you wouldn't have to print new labels.


On the other hand, when you are using the "hottest chile in the world" most sauce makers want to call that out.

Hope this helps~
 
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Burning Colon said:
curious, why then would you make an exception with the red scorpion and not just label it "red scorpion peppers"?. why wouldn't you stay consistent, you would have to label all the various varieties of jalapeno, cayenne and habs?.
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Because that's the name I purchased it under.

It also helps to tell my customers the type of pepper.

I could, in theory, just list "hot peppers", and may get away with that (I'd still have to call out the roasted, and dried peppers separately) so in theory I wouldn't even ned a "red" descriptor.

But as you intimated, a yellow bottle with black font "HOT SAUCE" isn't great marketing.
;)

So obviously if i'm spending the $ for a super premium pepper, I'm going to "feature" that pepper on my label - it helps my customer to know what to expect when purchasing the sauce.
:cheers:
 
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There was a certain wine grape grower, a very large one, he had the habit of selling grapes to wineries that were not what they thought. He got caught, the feds cracked down,he payed huge fines. The wineries payed nothing.
 
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salsalady said:
my .02 ---

When I started making shelf stable sauces in 2001, extracts were how you got the extreme heat and Red Savina habaneros were the Hottest Chile In the World. Red Savina's were (trademarked? or Registered?) and commanded a premium price. From what I understand, there are many Carribean Red Habaneros that have the same heat as Red Savs without the extra cost of growing a registered/licensed chile.

Right now, I'm having trouble getting Red Savina Habs for my sauces, and it's a real PITA since my labels all read Red Savina, so if I substitute another Carib Red, I'm technically out of compliance.

As far as I understand, Moruga is a variety name for a t-scorp chile, like Billy Biker is a varietal name for a jalapeno. There are no restrictions to using the name Moruga. You don't need to list it as "Moruga" if you don't want. You could just list it as T-Scorp so next year, when another hotter t-scorp comes out, you wouldn't have to print new labels.


On the other hand, when you are using the "hottest chile in the world" most sauce makers want to call that out.

Hope this helps~
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Actually it does - I shoulda just PM'd you & saved the topic.

I may actually just list "Trinidad scorpion" instead. Compliance issues have ready been a PITA for me so the last thing I want to do
Is change my label / recipe every time a "next most popular variety" comes out.

:cheers:

Glad I started this discussion now before my labels are finalized. Thanks all. This is why THP rules!
:cheers:
 
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pepperproblem said:
There was a certain wine grape grower, a very large one, he had the habit of selling grapes to wineries that were not what they thought. He got caught, the feds cracked down,he payed huge fines. The wineries payed nothing.
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Yeah - makes sense. They bought the grapes on good faith, so they were technically compliant regardless that the grapes in their wine weren't as represented. I'm no attorney but that holds up to my 2 semesters of business law.

They were, literally, selling "the fruit of the poisoned vine". Not their fault.
 
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Oh, and as far as proof of lineage, I don't worry about that. I ask the grower about their operation andbeyond that, if they tell me it's "XYZ Chile" I trust that it's "XYZ chile" .

As a sauce maker, you can only do so much for the integrity of your sauce and ingredients. If something turns out to not be what I was sold it would come back to the grower. Dealing with reputable growers is your first line of defense.


Beyond that,,,seriously...who's ever going to question what you put in a sauce? Is someone ever going to genetically test your sauce to make sure the chiles are actually morugas? It comes back to your reputation as a sauce maker that what you put on the label is actually in the sauce and your trust that what you bought is what you got.


edit- just read the grape example, I'm wondering if the grape seller knew the grapes weren't as representedand knowingly sold the wrong stuff.
 
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salsalady said:
Beyond that,,,seriously...who's ever going to question what you put in a sauce? Is someone ever going to genetically test your sauce to make sure the chiles are actually morugas?
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Based on some of the topics around here it wouldn't shock me!


edit- just read the grape example, I'm wondering if the grape seller knew the grapes weren't as representedand knowingly sold the wrong stuff.
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Sounds like it since he's the one who got busted. If determined that the grower knowingly defrauded the grape-seller & the grape-seller innocently misrepresented then, it woulda been on the grower.
 
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So, if you, as the purchaser, have an invoice that specifially lists the chiles as "xyz chiles" then I feel like that's the best you can do to authenticate your ingredients.

We all know there's a whole lot of fraudulent chiles being offered for sale in the i-net. By working with a reputable grower, it's the best we can do aside from growing everything ourselves.
 
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The label regulations over there must be more strict than elsewhere as I have come across bottles that simply list "red chilli".

A search for the exact phrase Trinidad Scorpion on the uspto.gov Trademark Search brought up one abandoned trademark. There were no hits on Moruga or Morouga.

salsalady said:
As far as I understand, Moruga is a variety name for a t-scorp chile, like Billy Biker is a varietal name for a jalapeno. There are no restrictions to using the name Moruga. You don't need to list it as "Moruga" if you don't want. You could just list it as T-Scorp so next year, when another hotter t-scorp comes out, you wouldn't have to print new labels.
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The name Moruga being a place in Trinidad from what I have learned on this forum from other's was used to describe a non-super hot Moruga Red or Moruga Yellow. Now that the Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend (known by various name permutations) has become popular many simply refer to it as Moruga. The idea to just list it as Trinidad Scorpion seems like the way to go as it was part of the original name.

A virtual cookie goes to anyone who managed to fit Red Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend on their label. ;)
 
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just look at the original name of the pepper before the CPI study changed it for marketing purposes.

Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend

Trinidad - It comes from trinidad
Scorpion - It looks like a Scorpion tail
Moruga - It was found growing in Moruga
Blend - The person who found it isn't real sure what genetics are in it (if it was a cross etc.)


Personally i don't see how any of these works can be trademarked etc.


imo just list it as Trinidad Scorpion, that way you have WAAAYYY more leeway with what you use in the sauce.
 
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harry said:
The label regulations over there must be more strict than elsewhere as I have come across bottles that simply list "red chilli".

A search for the exact phrase Trinidad Scorpion on the uspto.gov Trademark Search brought up one abandoned trademark. There were no hits on Moruga or Morouga.



The name Moruga being a place in Trinidad from what I have learned on this forum from other's was used to describe a non-super hot Moruga Red or Moruga Yellow. Now that the Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend (known by various name permutations) has become popular many simply refer to it as Moruga. The idea to just list it as Trinidad Scorpion seems like the way to go as it was part of the original name.

A virtual cookie goes to anyone who managed to fit Red Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend on their label. ;)
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Hahaha

Yeah - all good points, and only someone who's made product labels can relate to fitting shit in, so that was damn funny...

Anyway, yes - I think (think) I can list "chiles, dried chiles, roasted chiles" - but as mentioned, the discerning hot sauce consumer wants to know more detail regarding the chiles within.

If it's good for the buyer, it's good for the seller.

My concern is more with regard to listing it as "Moruga scorpion" and having a grower pop up & say "I'm the only legal source of Moruga Scorpions & you didn't get those peppers from me!"

Etc

Sure, I could take the extreme minimalist approach but it'd be terrible marketing.
:cheers:
 
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Think of sauces in general. With the commercial stuff almost everything they use is a ® trademark. BBQ sauces have Heinz® ketchup and French's® mustard. But the label just says ketchup, mustard... unless they have the permission/rights. So just be sure to do your due diligence on registered trademarks. I know Red Savina was one not sure of any others really.

However you should never take legal advise from the net. You know better LD!!!!!!!!!!!!! This goes without saying. Seek an attorney.
 
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