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fermenting Long...er Ferment Questions

H

hot&spicy

So you understand what you are looking at I thought I would preface this with a little clarification.  

I drilled holes in my lids and put a piece of vinyl tubing in the hole then jammed the 3 in 1 air lock in to make it air tight. I cut the top off a beer bottle and used a plastic lid to push down the peppers. Canning salt and distilled water was used. All glass and metal was boiled and plastic was soaked in bleach solution prior to assembly. I used frozen peppers. They have been in for 4 months and 15 days.

The cayenne initially produced so much liquid from the salting that it backed up into the air lock. I removed and cleaned it and removed some liquid and the bottle top. On the serrano a few times when I added more distilled water to the airlock due to evaporation it seemed to suck the water in. The lemon drop had no issues.

My questions are:

On the cayenne is it dark only because there were some portions exposed and not fully submerged? When looking at the photos with the brown beer bottle in them, the beer bottle itself does not influence what the liquid color actually looked liked.

For the serrano was this sucking back in normal and ok?

On the lid I used to hold down the lemon drop there seems to be some sort of sediment that I cannot identify. Does it look like anything you have seen?

For all of them there was a milkiness on the bottom as seen in the photos.  Is this ok and not harmful?  I sucked out the top darker liquid and then cooked and pureed with distilled water.

It smelled and once cooked and pureed into sauce tasted as if you had made sauce out of a jar of peppers that had been pickled in 100% vinegar. Is this the way a ferment would taste after that long?  

My last ferment was 2 months and tasted great, good pepper flavor with some tang of ferment. This one is very little pepper flavor and seemed way too fermenty/acetic.  I don't know if that is normal, has gone bad, is harmful or just my personal taste.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Thank You very much

P.S. In general what is the your best way to weigh down the peppers in small jars like a regular mouth mason jar or the like?


















 
 
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Do you have silicon around the outside of the tubing?
How does it smell?
The color of the liguid makes me think that you may got some oxygen in the jars durring the fermenting process.
I'm guessing that the tubing is inserted into the open end of the beer bottle. Is that right?
I have some theories on this but in short, I think your beer bottle, and lack of silicon is to blame
 
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I used 3% by weight canning salt mixed with the peppers and brine made with the same 3% salt and distilled water. I added about 1/4c whey drained from plain no sugar yogurt. Other than what I originally posted about what else happened nothing else.

Does kahm yeast impart a particular smell or flavor that a longer ferment, thus more kahm yeast, would be more noticeable that a short one and I could just not be familiar with its nuances.



There is no silicone around the vinyl tubing. It is just jammed together. I did test before by putting pressure through the air lock opening and there were not any leaks around the jar lid and tubing nor the tubing and air lock.

The best way I can describe the way it smell is if you have ever pickled and canned peppers in 100% white vinegar. The smell and taste that you would get when you opened them 6 months or whenever you got around to eating them. A very acetic smell but obviously not like fresh vinegar. All three smell and taste, accounting for pepper type, the same.

It does not smell or taste bad, in terms of something that has spoiled, etc. Just bad as I think it tastes yucky, for lack of a better term and am very disappointed as my first attempt was great.  One of my first batches did spoil and it smelled different. I cannot recall how exactly, but I am pretty sure it smelled spoiled.  I had asked about that one here too, http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42886-help-with-fermented-sauce/ Those ones I had no airlock, just kept the jar closed. This time I did not have clear liquid like the first photo, the good batch, in that post, but it was not murky having icky, stuff on top, like the last two photos. This time it was just darker.

Yes, the short piece of tubing and end of the airlock are inside the open end of the bottle.

I did not have many ideas as to how I should interface the airlock with the mason jar. I thought that this would work rather than buying a drilled rubber stopper for a mason jar. What type of jar is good to use and how do you interface if with an airlock? How to you weight the solids down in a jar?

How much air is bad and what problems does it introduce?
Is there a point at which it is worse, e.g. when actively producing CO2 and expelling it from the jar, ok, but after active ferment is stopped, bad?


Again, many thanks.
 
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Wow!
hot&spicy said:
I used 3% by weight canning salt mixed with the peppers and brine made with the same 3% salt and distilled water. I added about 1/4c whey drained from plain no sugar yogurt. Other than what I originally posted about what else happened nothing else.
Does kahm yeast impart a particular smell or flavor that a longer ferment, thus more kahm yeast, would be more noticeable that a short one and I could just not be familiar with its nuances.
There is no silicone around the vinyl tubing. It is just jammed together. I did test before by putting pressure through the air lock opening and there were not any leaks around the jar lid and tubing nor the tubing and air lock.
The best way I can describe the way it smell is if you have ever pickled and canned peppers in 100% white vinegar. The smell and taste that you would get when you opened them 6 months or whenever you got around to eating them. A very acetic smell but obviously not like fresh vinegar. All three smell and taste, accounting for pepper type, the same.
It does not smell or taste bad, in terms of something that has spoiled, etc. Just bad as I think it tastes yucky, for lack of a better term and am very disappointed as my first attempt was great.  One of my first batches did spoil and it smelled different. I cannot recall how exactly, but I am pretty sure it smelled spoiled.  I had asked about that one here too, http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42886-help-with-fermented-sauce/ Those ones I had no airlock, just kept the jar closed. This time I did not have clear liquid like the first photo, the good batch, in that post, but it was not murky having icky, stuff on top, like the last two photos. This time it was just darker.
Yes, the short piece of tubing and end of the airlock are inside the open end of the bottle.
I did not have many ideas as to how I should interface the airlock with the mason jar. I thought that this would work rather than buying a drilled rubber stopper for a mason jar. What type of jar is good to use and how do you interface if with an airlock? How to you weight the solids down in a jar?
How much air is bad and what problems does it introduce?
Is there a point at which it is worse, e.g. when actively producing CO2 and expelling it from the jar, ok, but after active ferment is stopped, bad?
Again, many thanks.
Click to expand...
Well I use half gallon mason jars with rubber stopper and same airlock. Your mash and brine look perfect just the right amount. As for holding down your mash myself and many others use the cabbage leaf method pull leaves that are heavy and cupped downwards cut into circle shape fold carefully insert into jar so cabbage encapsulate mash carefully push down till brine rises over leaf this method has worked fantastic for me the cabbage helps in starting fermentation and seems to inhibit the growth of Kahm yeast.
Kahm yeast won't hurt your product just scrape off before processing.
I don't weigh down the cabbage leaf pretty much stays in place just remove before processing :)
As far as 02 goes once fermentation begins oxygen will be forced out to create a anaerobic condition.
This is what's required for a successful fermentation. Never open jar once sealed up till ready to process.
Still stumped on why yours has such a dark brine? Did you open jars during fermentation? No oxygen will be present during fermentation cycle. Oxygen BAD!! Keep jars sealed.
Do you have a ph meter?
Ferments should have a sour sweet pepper smell when it goes bad you'll know super funky!! :(
Otherwise you look to be on point.
Cheers
 
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H&S - 
 
Below is a pic from a current batch of ferment I have going.  As you can see it's darkened a little towards the top - from being exposed to some light.  The ferment recipe begins quite quickly and is vigorous.  Ferment is currently 6 weeks old and about to be processed.  Full details and methods on that basic recipe here.  
 
2iqco5i.jpg

 
For recipes of mine that are more 'wet' - that is chunks of ingredients in brine - I will use the cabbage leaf method described by OS above (all credit due to Chili Monsta who first shared that knowledge, miss you around here bud!) to help keep things from floating.  For ferments such as pictured that are ground up mash I don't use the cabbage leaf as they tend to be very vigorous from the get go and usually I need to worry about blow out - thus the extra head room.  
 
In the link above I detail the exact airlocks and lids/rings/rubber gasket that I use in 1/2 gallon jars.  I've since graduated to carboys for several recipes, but the methods are the same.  At base any air introduced into the ferment environment is bad - particularly late in the game when most active fermentation has stopped.  Early on it's not too bad - I've had plenty of ferments blow out - sending mash up through the airlock and out the top early on - then opened/cleaned airlock reinserted and everything's been fine.  But if you're opening at the end stages you're allowing oxygen into the ferment at a time when it's not producing much CO2, meaning it won't drive that oxygen out of the jar which can lead to oxidation, spoilage and more.  
 
The thing puzzling me about your pics is the darkened brine.  All brine will take on some color from the ferment, but I've not seen ones like that.  I do agree that the sediment is kham yeast which is harmless.  Your DIY weight trap to keep things under the brine level could be part of the cause and you might want to check these out as it's the same basic premise but with nothing to get in the way of vacating air through the lock.   
 
I'd contact and/or seek out posts by Rocketman and Chili Monsta - I really did learn a LOT of helpful information from them.   Addressing your current ferments; you've sampled them and a) not died & b) been unhappy with the taste.  You can pull and process then balance that vinegar profile with other ingredients during cook down (sweeteners such as honey/sugar/agave) and/or fruits such as mango and/or pineapple to help achieve a more balanced final product.  I'd go that route as you have so much time invested, but at the same time you might not be able to 'bring them back' so to speak.
 
Generally long term ferments I have done do not become 'more vinegar-y' with age; rather they become more complex - the salt/sour/umami on 6 month or more ferments is unusual and hard to describe.  They taste more 'calm' or more 'themselves' to me, and I know how confusing that reads - I just can't really describe it better at the moment.  They taste the same as 2 month old ferments, only better - not more acidic or more salty or anything like that.
 
I hope this has been of some help for you H&S.  Above all keep at it.  Trial and error really is the only way.  :)
 
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SmokenFire said:
H&S - 
 
Below is a pic from a current batch of ferment I have going.  As you can see it's darkened a little towards the top - from being exposed to some light.  The ferment recipe begins quite quickly and is vigorous.  Ferment is currently 6 weeks old and about to be processed.  Full details and methods on that basic recipe here.  
 
2iqco5i.jpg

 
For recipes of mine that are more 'wet' - that is chunks of ingredients in brine - I will use the cabbage leaf method described by OS above (all credit due to Chili Monsta who first shared that knowledge, miss you around here bud!) to help keep things from floating.  For ferments such as pictured that are ground up mash I don't use the cabbage leaf as they tend to be very vigorous from the get go and usually I need to worry about blow out - thus the extra head room.  
 
In the link above I detail the exact airlocks and lids/rings/rubber gasket that I use in 1/2 gallon jars.  I've since graduated to carboys for several recipes, but the methods are the same.  At base any air introduced into the ferment environment is bad - particularly late in the game when most active fermentation has stopped.  Early on it's not too bad - I've had plenty of ferments blow out - sending mash up through the airlock and out the top early on - then opened/cleaned airlock reinserted and everything's been fine.  But if you're opening at the end stages you're allowing oxygen into the ferment at a time when it's not producing much CO2, meaning it won't drive that oxygen out of the jar which can lead to oxidation, spoilage and more.  
 
The thing puzzling me about your pics is the darkened brine.  All brine will take on some color from the ferment, but I've not seen ones like that.  I do agree that the sediment is kham yeast which is harmless.  Your DIY weight trap to keep things under the brine level could be part of the cause and you might want to check these out as it's the same basic premise but with nothing to get in the way of vacating air through the lock.   
 
I'd contact and/or seek out posts by Rocketman and Chili Monsta - I really did learn a LOT of helpful information from them.   Addressing your current ferments; you've sampled them and a) not died & b) been unhappy with the taste.  You can pull and process then balance that vinegar profile with other ingredients during cook down (sweeteners such as honey/sugar/agave) and/or fruits such as mango and/or pineapple to help achieve a more balanced final product.  I'd go that route as you have so much time invested, but at the same time you might not be able to 'bring them back' so to speak.
 
Generally long term ferments I have done do not become 'more vinegar-y' with age; rather they become more complex - the salt/sour/umami on 6 month or more ferments is unusual and hard to describe.  They taste more 'calm' or more 'themselves' to me, and I know how confusing that reads - I just can't really describe it better at the moment.  They taste the same as 2 month old ferments, only better - not more acidic or more salty or anything like that.
 
I hope this has been of some help for you H&S.  Above all keep at it.  Trial and error really is the only way.  :)
Click to expand...
As usual Dru nothing but net!!!! Haven't stopped laughing from a) not died
 
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The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. I am not dead yet. I live to ferment another day.


I really appreciate all the help and information.  It is invaluable to someone like me with only few ferments down.

 
oldsalty said:
Wow!
Well I use half gallon mason jars with rubber stopper and same airlock. Your mash and brine look perfect just the right amount. As for holding down your mash myself and many others use the cabbage leaf method pull leaves that are heavy and cupped downwards cut into circle shape fold carefully insert into jar so cabbage encapsulate mash carefully push down till brine rises over leaf this method has worked fantastic for me the cabbage helps in starting fermentation and seems to inhibit the growth of Kahm yeast.
Kahm yeast won't hurt your product just scrape off before processing.
I don't weigh down the cabbage leaf pretty much stays in place just remove before processing :)
As far as 02 goes once fermentation begins oxygen will be forced out to create a anaerobic condition.
This is what's required for a successful fermentation. Never open jar once sealed up till ready to process.
Still stumped on why yours has such a dark brine? Did you open jars during fermentation? No oxygen will be present during fermentation cycle. Oxygen BAD!! Keep jars sealed.
Do you have a ph meter?
Ferments should have a sour sweet pepper smell when it goes bad you'll know super funky!! :(
Otherwise you look to be on point.
Cheers
Click to expand...
I like the cabbage leaf idea I will have to try that on the next one.

I only opened the cayenne when it backed up into the airlock but that was day 4 or 5. The serrano seemed to suck in some the of the water a few times.


I do not have a pH meter. I had been thinking to buy some of the test strips for times like these.  Is pH a definitive determination of whether or not the product when you open the jar is safe?  I.e. if I did have a pH meter and it was at an acceptable level but still looked as the photos show and smelled and tasted in a was that was unfamiliar to someone, would that therefore mean it is still safe despite these other possible signs. Or is it a general guideline with the other factors having weight in determining its safety and viability?


It doesn't smell super funky but not exactly like my first 2 month one. I am still wondering if the kahm yeast is imparting a flavor or odor that I am not familiar with.



I cannot recall exactly but I am sure that I did not let the water evaporate from the airlock enough to let in some air, but I cant' be certain. Is it possible that later on after the active fermentation had finish that if I had been inattentive to the water level than that might have introduce the slightest amount of oxygen?  Enough to darken it and give a slightly off flavor but not enough to make it go bad.
 
SmokenFire said:
Full details and methods on that basic recipe here.  
 
 
 
At base any air introduced into the ferment environment is bad - particularly late in the game when most active fermentation has stopped.    But if you're opening at the end stages you're allowing oxygen into the ferment at a time when it's not producing much CO2, meaning it won't drive that oxygen out of the jar which can lead to oxidation, spoilage and more.  
 
The thing puzzling me about your pics is the darkened brine.  All brine will take on some color from the ferment, but I've not seen ones like that.  I do agree that the sediment is kham yeast which is harmless.  Your DIY weight trap to keep things under the brine level could be part of the cause and you might want to check these out as it's the same basic premise but with nothing to get in the way of vacating air through the lock.   
 

Generally long term ferments I have done do not become 'more vinegar-y' with age; rather they become more complex - the salt/sour/umami on 6 month or more ferments is unusual and hard to describe.  They taste more 'calm' or more 'themselves' to me, and I know how confusing that reads - I just can't really describe it better at the moment.  They taste the same as 2 month old ferments, only better - not more acidic or more salty or anything like that.
 
I hope this has been of some help for you H&S.  Above all keep at it.  Trial and error really is the only way.   :)
Click to expand...
The lid and grommet that is in your post was what I was going to do. I tried it using a drilled out metal lid but when I would put the airlock in it would cut the grommet even when I filed and burrs off. That is why I went with the tubing, as it was thicker and I could push everything together tightly. I guess the thickness of a plastic lid gives the grommet enough surface area to distribute the pressure when jamming the air lock in.

That is an interesting gadget, better than a cut beer bottle.

I did add some sugar to cut the taste. Had to to get down. I mean its not awful just not something to add on top of something, rather to cook with.

I appreciate your description of the taste. Even if I have not been there yet it gives me something to compare to what I am tasting.
 
It always is a bit hard to see the peppers that took so long to grow not end up as I hoped, but I will keep on keeping on.
 
Thank you all very much
 
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hot&spicy said:
I do not have a pH meter. I had been thinking to buy some of the test strips for times like these.  Is pH a definitive determination of whether or not the product when you open the jar is safe?  I.e. if I did have a pH meter and it was at an acceptable level but still looked as the photos show and smelled and tasted in a was that was unfamiliar to someone, would that therefore mean it is still safe despite these other possible signs. Or is it a general guideline with the other factors having weight in determining its safety and viability?
More a general guideline - the lactic acid produced from fermentation is what kills any bad bugs to keep the food safe for storage.  I've had ferments that were perfectly safe from a pH standpoint that still tasted, well, not good at all.  :)

I cannot recall exactly but I am sure that I did not let the water evaporate from the airlock enough to let in some air, but I cant' be certain. Is it possible that later on after the active fermentation had finish that if I had been inattentive to the water level than that might have introduce the slightest amount of oxygen?  Enough to darken it and give a slightly off flavor but not enough to make it go bad.
 
Yes.  This is/can be a problem for anyone using these types of airlocks on a long term ferment.  
 
The lid and grommet that is in your post was what I was going to do. I tried it using a drilled out metal lid but when I would put the airlock in it would cut the grommet even when I filed and burrs off. That is why I went with the tubing, as it was thicker and I could push everything together tightly. I guess the thickness of a plastic lid gives the grommet enough surface area to distribute the pressure when jamming the air lock in.
 
I had the exact same trouble, so I plunked down for my current lids.  The tubing was a good DIY workaround, and so long as it's air tight you should be fine.  
 
Thank you all very much
Click to expand...
 
No problem H&S  :cheers:
 
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