Jump to content

  •  


The 11th Annual Hot Pepper Awards ACCEPTING ENTRIES!

Photo

Piri Piri Sauce company - bottling advice please.

sauce bottling handy filler

  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 23 February 2016 - 05:24 PM

HI All

 

I’ve been giving a recipe from a family friend from South Africa who has been selling his sauce for over a year now.  The rules and restrictions are lot more relaxed over there so I’m just making sure I get the process down right so I can take the product to farmers markets, and then hopefully get it into some stores.

 

I’ve read the 101 on bottling hot sauced and just want to make sure I’ve got it down right.  I also need some advice on bottling the sauce as it’s half pieces of various peppers and garlic, and the other half lemon, oil and water.  Similar to a salad dressing that separates in the bottle whilst sitting on the shelf.

 

Here’s my process and tell me where I could improve or where I may be wrong …

 

Sauce

-          Ingredients are purchased from suppliers washed and prepare for cooking

-          Peppers and garlic are processed in food processor into bits

-          They are cooked in a pot of oil with water and lemon juice for 20min

-          The temperature is around 200-220F during the 20 min cooking time

 

Bottles and caps

-          Bottles are Dorica 100ml and 250ml in size with screw on caps

-          The screw on caps have a foam insert inside them

-          Bottles are rinsed and placed into a 210F oven for 20mins

-          Caps are rinsed and air dried

 

The bottling part doesn’t happen until the sauce has finished cooking and I am ready to bottle. The sauce is then kept (or brought back up to)  a temp of 200 or higher when bottling.

 

The pH of the sauce is around 5 so I need to hot bottle in order to get a stable shelf life.

 

My questions…

1 – With a temp of 200F whilst bottling, do I need to worry about the foam in the caps getting too hot? I’ve done a bunch of rounds of making the sauce and there doesn’t appear to be any melting or anything noticeable.

2 – With the current setup, how long could these bottles last on the shelf? In the fridge?

3 – Can the handy filler that a lot of guys use on here be used to fill my bottles?  See the picture below you’ll noticed that half is liquid, and half chunky goodness.

4 – Are there alternative to the handy filler? Being in Canada $400USD is more like $600CND+

 

I'm sure there will be more questions later ... 

 

aknHvhO.jpg


Sorry, I wanted to add ....

 

- How can I keep my liquid and chunks agitated in a vat or pot whilst bottling so its a good mix of liquid and chunks?

- Can the Handy Filler handle that?



#1A Guest

Guest

  • Guest
  • Pip
  • 1 post

#2 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 23 February 2016 - 08:41 PM

Greetings, TioZe!  :welcome: to THP!

 

I'll reply in the text below to some of your questions~

 

Sauce

-          Ingredients are purchased from suppliers washed and prepare for cooking

-          Peppers and garlic are processed in food processor into bits

-          They are cooked in a pot of oil with water and lemon juice for 20min-Why cook with oil, water and lemon?  I'd maybe cook the vegetables in oil first, kind of a saute, then add the other liquids

-          The temperature is around 200-220F during the 20 min cooking time

 

Bottles and caps

-          Bottles are Dorica 100ml and 250ml in size with screw on caps

-          The screw on caps have a foam insert inside them

-          Bottles are rinsed and placed into a 210F oven for 20mins

-          Caps are rinsed and air dried-DO NOT RINSE!  This adds a potential for unclean water to get under the plastic liner and cause problems.  Filling with hot liquid and then inverting is all that's needed to setrilize the inside of the lid.

 

The bottling part doesn’t happen until the sauce has finished cooking and I am ready to bottle. The sauce is then kept (or brought back up to)  a temp of 200 or higher when bottling.

 

The pH of the sauce is around 5 so I need to hot bottle in order to get a stable shelf life.- this is not low enough to do the Hot Fill method with the bottles and caps you have.  If you want to keep the sauce at this pH the only safe method is pressure canning.  See Below for some bottles that can be used with pressure canning that still look like sauce bottles.

 

The sauce must be below 4.6 at the very minimum and that is for a sauce with little or no risky ingredients.  You should shoot for 4.0 pH, and then have the sauce and recipe tested by a process authority for approval.  Having the oil in the sauce adds some different factors,  I strongly encourage you to have it professionally tested. 

 

My questions…

1 – With a temp of 200F whilst bottling, do I need to worry about the foam in the caps getting too hot? I’ve done a bunch of rounds of making the sauce and there doesn’t appear to be any melting or anything noticeable. No, those caps and liners are good for 200F.

2 – With the current setup, how long could these bottles last on the shelf? In the fridge?  With the 5.0pH, I'd encourage you to keep it refrigerated, then it will probably last...4-6 months???? ...dunno...that would be for a Process Authority to answer.

3 – Can the handy filler that a lot of guys use on here be used to fill my bottles?  See the picture below you’ll noticed that half is liquid, and half chunky goodness.  Yes, the Handy Filler will work.  It has different size nozzles for different viscosities and bottles.

4 – Are there alternative to the handy filler? Being in Canada $400USD is more like $600CND+

 

 

 

The Handy Filler will not work to keep the bits suspended while bottling.  The HF has a tube that sits in the pot and sucks the sauce up with a counter mounted piston.  For now, you are probably just as well to use a ladle and funnel.  Each time you scoop with the ladle, give the sauce a stir.

 

THESE two lid styles should be compatable with pressure canning and the continuous thread style should work on most bottles that use the typical plastic cap that most hot sauce bottles have.  Contact the company Container And Packaging Supply for details.  They are a US company, don't know if they ship international, but at least you can get information about what you need to pressure can hot sauce bottles.

 

The other option is to make the sauce more acidic (lower the pH) and then the Hot Fill method will work.

 

Good Luck and Have Fun!

salsalady


PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#3 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:38 PM

I am doing this on my iPhone so please bear with me as I won't be quoting this reply.

Yes salsa lady I do Cook all my bids up in oil first then I add my other liquids that is correct. I just put the total cooking time after everything has been put together.

You mentioned in one paragraph that the handy filler would work for me, but later on you say that I won't because of the bits. I've emailed the company and they say I would need to keep the pot agitated while the feeling process happens that way I get half-and-half. I'm just wondering how salad dressing companies do it ? I've seen many products in whole foods and other grocery stores that are on the shelf in a plastic bottle and or three-quarter's oil and the rest are the little garlic bits and dried herbs. I'm wondering how they keep just life of that stable. Perhaps it's absorbent acid or they keep the pH down?
It is just to time-consuming to do this with a ladle. I did a batch of 24 bottles on Friday and that took me well over an hour and a half. I really need an automatic way of pumping out 240 bottles at a time into different sizes with the current bottles that I have. If it requires me to keep them in the fridge raider for now then so be it. I have been told that they will keep in the fridge for 3 to 6 months as well.

#4 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 23 February 2016 - 11:11 PM

I apologize for the confusing replies.

 

The HF will work as far as being able to handle liquids with solids in them.  The HF is said to handle pieces of vegetables up to 5mm-ish.  That was in reply to the handling the chunky bits question.  The filler has a long-ish tube that sits in the vat/kettle of whatever is being bottled.  The piston tube is adjustable to suck up SAID amount of sauce and then with the use of DuckBill valves (one-way rubber valves that are in-line) pumps the sucked up sauce out through a set of (customizable) nozzles.  The nozzle size is choosen by the size of the bottle orofice and consistency of the sauce. 

 

For the AGITATION, the HF will not help with agitation to keep all the pieces suspended while processing.  To that end, you coulds look at using something like xanthan, guar, agar agar, carrageenan to help keep the bits suspended at least through the bottling process.  Most sauces, even Franks's, Tabasco, and Crystal, will separate when the bottle is sitting on a shelf for a while (be it in the store or in the pantry).

 

2 different issues to be considered if considering a bottling machine.  Sorry for the confusion. 


Also, there are immersion stick blenders that can be hooked onto the side of the cooking pot and set to low to continually agitate the sauce while it is being sucked up with a HandyFiller type bottling system.  The shape and size of the potm, the consistency of the sauce, the speed of bottling, the heat of the burner under the kettle....all issues that need to be considered and when they all work...BiNGO!


Edited by salsalady, 23 February 2016 - 11:21 PM.

PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#5 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:10 AM

Can you give me more details about the immersion stick blender and keeping the sauce agitated.

I'd really like to keep the ingredient s down to natural but if need be I'll add xantha

#6 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:07 PM

Here's a couple links-

 

http://www.webstaura...on-blender.html

http://www.webstaura...on-support.html

 

Some blenders have an ON switch that can be locked on, some you have to hold on manually.  Just something to be aware of. 


PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#7 The Hot Pepper

The Hot Pepper

    On Fire!

  • Administrators
  • 41,521 posts
  • aka:Pookie
  • Location:NYC
  • (x3)

Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:11 PM

I'd really like to keep the ingredient s down to natural but if need be I'll add xantha

 

'Tis natural.



#8 SmokenFire

SmokenFire

    Smokin' Hot

  • Moderators
  • 3,720 posts
  • aka:the ralphster
  • Location:chicago
  • (x9)

Posted 24 February 2016 - 08:30 PM

The first thing that comes to my mind:

 

Can you cook the entire batch and then strain it?  That way you could have exact amounts of solids in each bottle and then use the handy filler to add the requisite amount of liquid to 'top it off' maybe?  You'd cook everything together, develop the flavor and then strain into another kettle.  Then you could add 'X' amount of grams of the solids and fill the rest w liquid.  

 

Also agree a pH of 5 is going to need to be sold as 'fresh refrigerated' like you see some salad dressings in the produce section of the grocery store.  If you seek shelf stability you'll have to find a way to get the pH down using some sort of acid.  

 

The dressings you see on store shelves are also all vacuum packed, which may be of benefit to your product but will also cost more than a handy filler. 


It felt like satan pissed in my mouth it was so hot and lasted a long time. It was a horrible experience eating one of them. - SavinaRed
I would love to travel to your castle to roam the land,eat pie and hunt woman. - sicman
 
 

#9 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 24 February 2016 - 09:25 PM

The problem, I'm guessing, is with the immersion blenders it will actually purée my goods. I don't want that to happen. I just wanted to keep everything moving. The salsa lady, aren't those blenders going to chop my stuff up and not just keep it moving?

That would be a solution though to keep everything moving in a big pot and then using the handy filler.

I'm just trying to cost everything out and comparing it do using a copacker - I can have a small copacker here do everything for me for $1500 for a 40 kg load. And you feel there would cost me 600 Canadian plus I would also have to get all the other immersion blenders and pots not to mention I have to rent the space which would cost me around $2000. Granted the only reoccurring cost is the $500 per month, however they may be more beneficial investment and laborsaving to go with a co packer.

I don't want to use xantha if I don't have to. I can keep things agitated and bottle at the same time then it shouldn't be a problem.
I'm still working out the pH since I'm not far off per bottle I may just try adding more lemon juice to the recipe instead of oil. I guess I could also add absorbent acid in powdered form to stabilize it and bring it down but I would hate to put that on my ingredient list since I'm all about keeping things natural and no preservatives.
I meant to say the handy filler would cost me $600. To rent a space here would cost me $500 a month. That's what I meant by my comments above. Since it's a requirement to bottle your sauces in a commercial kitchen I have to rent space in one.

#10 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 24 February 2016 - 10:01 PM

If you can make the sauce without the oil, I'd strongly suggest exploring that option.

 

The immersion blenders usually have Hi/Lo settings.  The low setting will agitate without pulverizing. 

 

Ascorbic Acid is Vitamin C.  Most people don't have issues with Vit. C being used as a preservative.  Citric Acid is another option. 

 

Xanthan is a natural thickener, along with the other thickener suggestions posted.  They are usually from plant material.  Sometimes xanthan is made from whey, a by-product of cheese making, it's also made from a lot of other vegetable matter.  Google is (sometimes not) your friend. 


Edited by salsalady, 24 February 2016 - 10:01 PM.

PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#11 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 25 February 2016 - 02:33 PM

I'm wondering how much xantha to use for the recipe ? Anyone use that before ?

Salsa - thanks for all the links.

I'll be getting a pot - immersion blender - and stabilizer to help with the bottling for now. Other than those links can you recommend any other sites that sell what I'm after ? I have a place in the USA so could ship it there.

#12 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:02 PM

I'm wondering how much xanthaN to use for the recipe ? Anyone use that before ?

 

fify~  ;)

 

start with 1 teaspoon per gallon (4L) liquids.

 

 

Remember, if you are using a ladle and funnel for filling, you don't need the immersion blender right now. 

 

I like THIS silicone canning scoop, the hook hangs on the side of the pot.  Grab the ladle, give the sauce a couple swirls, scoop/funnel into bottle, hange the ladle on the edge of the pot, cap/flip, repeat. 


PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#13 The Hot Pepper

The Hot Pepper

    On Fire!

  • Administrators
  • 41,521 posts
  • aka:Pookie
  • Location:NYC
  • (x3)

Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:12 PM

SL, he is trying to make a rockin sauce.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Xantha



#14 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 25 February 2016 - 04:30 PM

LOL ... dam you guys ... I was on my iphone. hah. And i always drop the "N" when i say it in real life .. weird. I'll emphasize the "N" A LOT more now.

 

hehe.

 

Ladle and funnel is taking way too long. I am ready to buy the handy filler and find a solution with the agitation.

 

Just need to get the right blender and the right part for it.

 

Can I use xanthaN whilst it's at 200F ?

 Should it be added at the start of the end?

How about Vitamin C - absorbic acid - start or the end?

Is there any way to test Ph whilst its hot, or does it have to be cooled, then tested?



#15 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 25 February 2016 - 06:00 PM

:lol:  it's all good~

 

 

Can I use xanthaN whilst it's at 200F ? Yes, it works hot or cold

 Should it be added at the start of the end? whenever, but practice mixing a bit with water first, it's kinda tricky to mix in smooth.  you can't just dump a spoonful in the pot.

How about Vitamin C - absorbic acid - start or the end? whenever

Is there any way to test Ph whilst its hot, or does it have to be cooled, then tested?  Some pH meters will work on heated sauces but most won't.  Check the specs on the meter you have (or will buy).  Quick trick is to put a small metal or ceramic ramekin in the freezer (like those little cups they serve tarter sauce in).  Put a teaspoon or 2 of heated sauce in the frozen cup.  It will cool right down enough to safely use a regular pH meter. 


PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#16 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 25 February 2016 - 11:14 PM

I found this product that may be useful for stirring and agitating my stuff. Thoughts?

 

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/B00GQZ44EG


Edited by TioZe Piri Piri, 26 February 2016 - 09:16 AM.


#17 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 24 May 2016 - 01:17 PM

Reviving my topic a little...

 

1- Since posting, we've tested the sauce and are at 3.6 pH for both Mild and Hot.

2 - Question ... can we use Sunflower oil to cook everything at a boil?  When i test the temp, it's around 200-210F. IS that enough to kill bacteria before hot filling?



#18 salsalady

salsalady

    On Fire!

  • Extreme Biz
  • 13,136 posts
  • aka:SL, HSL
  • Location:eastern WA, USA... the dry side of the state
  • (x8)

Posted 03 June 2016 - 05:25 PM

200F is a good target temp.  Others have also posted that once the produce is cooked, the sauce doesn't need to cooked at a full rolling boil for hours on end.  Gentle simmer at temp for a bit, then keep it at 190-200F while bottling.

 

Oil- don't know why sunflower wouldn't work.  I think it's a pretty standard oil, not too strong of flavor.  I think some other oils have even less flavor, if that's what you want.  Hopefully others will chime in about which oils have the least flavor, some work better on higher heats...

 

Did you get the auto-stirrer gizmo?  It looks like a great idea, just wondering if the product delivers as promised.   


PureEvilProducts

The Chile Addict's prayer-"Lord, grant me the wisdom to know it will be too hot, the courage to eat it anyway, and the serenity to accept the pain that follows. Amen"

PepperPeopleRock! 


#19 TioZe Piri Piri

TioZe Piri Piri

    Mild

  • New Members
  • Pip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 06 June 2016 - 09:06 AM

So we managed to do our first "big batch" of sauce in a 10 gallon pot.  We didn't have anything to agitate the sauce, just elbow grease.  It worked fairly well, but not every bottle had the same consistency of little bits and oil.  It's a bit of a work in progress.  My cousin said we should try and get a spit motor for bbq's that spins 10-30RPM and attach a kitchenaid paddle to it somehow so the person stirring doesnt get exhausted.  It was a lot of work have to agitate the sauce the whole time whilst bottling.  This is where a professional kitchen, or commercial equipment would have made the process a lot easier.  We still managed to get approx 170 bottles (in two batches) with two people over 5 hours.  That's a lot better than 12 bottles per hour using a funnel and ladle. 

 

The Sunflower worked just fine - I had the sauce up to 220 for 15-20 mins before hot filling.  I need to find me some better gloves because the bbq ones I had still left me with some blisters.

 

I didnt get the auto stirrer - no.  I dont think it would have worked or had been large enough



#20 JoynersHotPeppers

JoynersHotPeppers

    On Fire!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,637 posts

Posted 06 June 2016 - 09:13 AM

200F is a good target temp.  Others have also posted that once the produce is cooked, the sauce doesn't need to cooked at a full rolling boil for hours on end.  Gentle simmer at temp for a bit, then keep it at 190-200F while bottling.

 

Oil- don't know why sunflower wouldn't work.  I think it's a pretty standard oil, not too strong of flavor.  I think some other oils have even less flavor, if that's what you want.  Hopefully others will chime in about which oils have the least flavor, some work better on higher heats...

 

Did you get the auto-stirrer gizmo?  It looks like a great idea, just wondering if the product delivers as promised.   

You can get tasteless and odorless coconut oil. I use it sometimes in cooking when I do not want to alter taste of delicate items 


heatmadesimple.com
 
Instagram and Twitter @JoynerHotPepper






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests