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Aging Sauce
- Thread starter PtMD989
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All my sauces are cooked after fermenting the pepper mash. However, I like to keep a couple jars of raw fermented mash in the fridge where it will slow the process down to almost stopping it. This stuff I'll spoon into ramen/omelettes/stew/chili/tuna sandwich/etc.
I still have 1/2 jar of fermented ghost/habanero mash that's almost 2 years old. Very different from the newer batches in that it's a "smoother" heat that builds slow but still peaks right up there where ghosts belong. The flavors of the peppers, onion, garlic, and such are blended so well from aged mash that you can't taste 1 ingredient over another. That's my private reserve. The fresher stuff, as good as it is, I can still taste the different ingredients like the flavors are mixed but not melded together in a state of umami.
I still have 1/2 jar of fermented ghost/habanero mash that's almost 2 years old. Very different from the newer batches in that it's a "smoother" heat that builds slow but still peaks right up there where ghosts belong. The flavors of the peppers, onion, garlic, and such are blended so well from aged mash that you can't taste 1 ingredient over another. That's my private reserve. The fresher stuff, as good as it is, I can still taste the different ingredients like the flavors are mixed but not melded together in a state of umami.
PtMD989 said:
So lets think about this scientifically. Have your ferments always been in the fridge? That would be an odd place to ferment something as fermentation would happen extremely slowly at those temps. If you fermented at room temp or higher for a while and then moved into the fridge then it's a question whether your ferments are actually still fermenting or just aging. I've seen some folks claim they have ferments going on a year or more. No they don't, unless they've been re-feeding the jars with fermentable sugars. What has happened is fermentation, then the sugars run out, and what happens afterwards is aging.
So what is aging? As far as I know, it means oxidation. It's what makes premium wines taste amazing after years or even decades. But to get that, you need an ongoing source of oxygen. How much? Good question. Obviously winemakers done leave their best stuff in an open barrel for decades. Your 1959 Petrus tastes amazing because it has been exposed to tiny amounts of oxygen leaking into the bottle for decades. A whole bunch at once would make it taste bad probably, and a whole bunch plus bacteria = vinegar.
So to answer your question... I don't know. People don't age their expensive wines at room temp. Is that informative? I don't know. Maybe a better question is how much air (=oxygen) are you letting in. Is it a lot, like in a loosely capped jar? Probably better in the fridge, if only because maybe other bad bacteria can get in there too. Is it an airlocked jar? I'm not sure any aging can really occur until the airlock fails and lets in oxygen. Are you just aging or is there any ongoing fermentation going on?
Sorry if this isn't a clear answer. But maybe it demonstrates there's not really a clear answer for all situations.
Yes they are on top of the fridge. Just trying to keep them out of harms way. I believe they are still fermenting because I see little air bubbles showing up in the sauce. I don’t really have a set time when I’m going to stop fermentation by heating it up.
Gotta have winemakers patience.
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Gotta have winemakers patience.
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My cooked sauces age in the bottle for a month or more before use.
My fermented sauces will ferment anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. When fermentation is over I cook them to stop fermentation, then bottle and they age for a month in the bottle before use.
I have batches of ferments that are more than a year old and have found the aged stuff has a depth of flavor not apparent in "younger" sauces or ferments. Much like Hawaiianero described above, the older stuff just tastes more developed and mature.
Recently I discovered a cache of Rocket sauce that had been hidden behind some rarely used flatware in our basement. It's gotta be at least 5 years old, still with scotch taped hand written label on it. The differences between the 5 year old sauce and a bottle of my last batch that's 6 weeks old is significant.
The 5 year old is noticeably darker, though it's the same consistency - not thicker or thinner. Taste wise it's richer and more full bodied. I'd compare it to the difference between a good Cabernet or Scotch; the younger and older versions taste largely the same, but subtle secondary notes are more prevalent in the older examples. If that makes any sense lol.
Here's a pic of the two of them side by side:
My fermented sauces will ferment anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. When fermentation is over I cook them to stop fermentation, then bottle and they age for a month in the bottle before use.
I have batches of ferments that are more than a year old and have found the aged stuff has a depth of flavor not apparent in "younger" sauces or ferments. Much like Hawaiianero described above, the older stuff just tastes more developed and mature.
Recently I discovered a cache of Rocket sauce that had been hidden behind some rarely used flatware in our basement. It's gotta be at least 5 years old, still with scotch taped hand written label on it. The differences between the 5 year old sauce and a bottle of my last batch that's 6 weeks old is significant.
The 5 year old is noticeably darker, though it's the same consistency - not thicker or thinner. Taste wise it's richer and more full bodied. I'd compare it to the difference between a good Cabernet or Scotch; the younger and older versions taste largely the same, but subtle secondary notes are more prevalent in the older examples. If that makes any sense lol.
Here's a pic of the two of them side by side:
That is a great find kinda like finding a 10 spot in the pocket of your winter coat. A couple of years ago I found some homebrew barleywine in my parents basement. I made it in 1998.
Is there any difference in quality by aging in refrigeration compared to aging at room temperature?
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Is there any difference in quality by aging in refrigeration compared to aging at room temperature?
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Lots of good info in here, I've followed SmokenFire and SalsaLady as they've laid out their process and I have never gone wrong by doing so.
Being fairly thick-skulled, I've had to experience the wrong steps even after being warned not to do them.
Go figure
Having said that, here are a couple things I consider my own intangible truths:
You get a better ferment if you finely chop all your ingredients vs large chunks or whole.
You get a better sauce when cooking down fermented vs fresh ingredients.
The line between when fermenting stops and aging begins is a blurry one but longer time is always better.
Put ferments in the fridge when you want to stop/slow the process, it will continue to age.
Aging for a year in just vinegar in a food grade plastic bucket and then turning into puree makes an amazing base for creating custom sauces.
When making sauce, you get from 3 to 5 times to taste it before your taste buds are shot depending on level of heat you're shooting for.
Let sauce cool overnight and taste again, reheat and either make adjustments or start bottling.
Don't share any of the end result until at least a week or two after bottling it, let it rest and you will find a superior sauce compared to what it was.
Most important rule of all.....don't ever forget this one.......
Murphy's Law is a MoFo
Being fairly thick-skulled, I've had to experience the wrong steps even after being warned not to do them.
Go figure
Having said that, here are a couple things I consider my own intangible truths:
You get a better ferment if you finely chop all your ingredients vs large chunks or whole.
You get a better sauce when cooking down fermented vs fresh ingredients.
The line between when fermenting stops and aging begins is a blurry one but longer time is always better.
Put ferments in the fridge when you want to stop/slow the process, it will continue to age.
Aging for a year in just vinegar in a food grade plastic bucket and then turning into puree makes an amazing base for creating custom sauces.
When making sauce, you get from 3 to 5 times to taste it before your taste buds are shot depending on level of heat you're shooting for.
Let sauce cool overnight and taste again, reheat and either make adjustments or start bottling.
Don't share any of the end result until at least a week or two after bottling it, let it rest and you will find a superior sauce compared to what it was.
Most important rule of all.....don't ever forget this one.......
Murphy's Law is a MoFo
jhc said:
I don't 100% agree with everything you said here. You are correct about the fridge being an unlikely place for fermentation, unless its pizza dough or a lager, but those yeast strains are more suited to the cooler temperatures. At refrigerator temperatures, lactobacillus activity slows to a crawl. A perfect environment for the leftover mash after straining sauce though. That mash makes amazing beef jerky but I digress.
Fermenting sugars with our chosen bacteria in general is a slower process. Yes in the first few days you see wild activity, but I have ferments over a year old and will still notice a bubble come out of the airlock from time to time. This could be from the solids settling after the acid continues to break them down, but I suspect what actually happens is that you reach a state of very low sugar concentration, combined with a PH so low (3.6 or below) where there isn't much activity from the few bacteria that are left, but there is a little. Is this the end of fermentation and the beginning of aging? It isn't like producing alcohol fermentation to total dryness takes place in 5 to 15 days. Regardless of what is going on, you are absolutely right about the flavor improving. For reference, I live in TX and the inside temperature of my house is generally above 70 degrees Fahrenheit.
Where I think you are wrong is the oxidation process. Oxidation is the enemy of flavor in most things. It imparts off flavors to wine, beer and cider, it makes fats and oils go rancid, and generally makes the hot sauce taste kind of stale. You're right about long aged red wines having minute amounts of oxygen introduced, as can be seen from their deep ruby color, but many a bottle of fine aged wine has to be dumped because of exposure. This is why, in general (there are exceptions) you typically don't age a wine you plan on drinking more than 5 years).
So I think, really the only point I don't agree with is the statement "aging=oxidation". Rather, aging is a complex chemical process whereby the acids break down the individual components and the lifecycle of the lactobacillus advances. Either way, more time always seems to produce a more complex sauce, that is much better in my opinion.
Thanks for the reply. I definitely misread "on" vs "in" the fridge.Redeemer said:
I guess I can't say definitively that ferments can't go on for a long time, but ask yourself this: what stops "wild" fermenting activity if not for using up the fermentable sugar. Maybe sauce ferments don't ferment to dryness in a week or two but a year at 70 degrees? And to be honest, even if the tiniest bubble of CO2 is being made does that really affect the flavor of the sauce? I'm going to say probably no. I strongly believe based on simple chemical and microbiological principles that the effects of fermentation on the flavor of a sauce are done way before a year, and probably within a few weeks given a stable room temp.
Now regarding aging, let's agree that aging and fermentation are different, though for all I know there might be some common chemical reactions. Just look at Smokey's non-fermented but aged sauce pic above. So aging has nothing to do with the lactobacillus life cycle. Now I will agree I was wrong to say that aging is simply oxidation. It's clearly complex as you say. But what is obvious is that exposure to oxygen is a critical part of the process. There aren't too many folks concerned with aging hot sauces but there are a ton that are interested in aging wine and it's very obvious that oxygen is key to that process. Take winemakers who intentionally use micro-oxygenation to the outcry when higher end producers began experiementing with screwcaps- there was a lot of concern that they would keep all oxygen out and the wines would be un-ageable. And I have to nitpick a little about "you shouldn't age wine more than 5 years"... I have a 32 year old Rioja sitting 5 feet away and many bottles that have been aging 10 years or more. Granted most wine is not made to age but that's a market decision based on the desires of the average consumer. Wine can be aged for decades if it's meant to and the conditions are right. But it's a double edged sword... too much oxygen exposure can be a bad thing. It's probably true for sauce too but how many 20year aged sauces do we see?