pod Bih, Naga, King, Morich, Dorset, Ghost, 7 Pot, 7 Pod...

[PepperDaddler]

I have noticed there are a lot of names for peppers that to me look the same or are the same pepper called by different names by different people. Or grow lists that have a couple of things listed at the same time like Bhut Jolokia and Naga Jolokia which are the same thing according to Wikipedia. ( Yeah, I know, definitely not the greatest source to be getting my information...)
 
Here's something I pulled up for the sake of making what I say easy to understand:
 
The pepper is called by different names in different regions. North of the Brahmaputra, it is widely called Bhut Jolokia or Bhoot Jolokia, literally translating to 'Ghost Chilli' in Assamese and Bengali ("Bhoot" means ghost in most other Indo-Aryan languages as well). Some believe that "Bhut" might imply "from Bhutan" but that is incorrect as the translation of "from Bhutan" in Assamese is "Bhuitiya" not "Bhut". Furthermore, this pepper has never occurred naturally in the temperate climate of Bhutan. On the southern bank of the river Brahmaputra, this chili becomes Naga jolokia, believed to be named after the ferocious Naga warriors inhabiting the plains & hills of Nagaland. Further complicating matters, a 2009 paper, published in the Asian Agri-History journal, coined the English term "Naga king chili" which refers to the chili's large pod size. It also stated that the most common Indian (Assamese) usage is bhoot jolokia and gives the alternate common name as Bih Jolokia (bih means "poison" in Assamese, denoting the plant's heat). The Assamese word "jolokia" simply means the Capsicum pepper. Other usages on the subcontinent are Saga Jolokia, Indian mystery chili, and Indian rough chili (after the chili's rough skin). It has also been called the Tezpur chili after the Assamese city of Tezpur. In Manipur, the chili is called umorok or oo-morok (oo = "tree", morok = "chili").
 
I have also heard of Dorset Naga.
 
As a newcomer this can be confusing, especially when I see the practice done by experienced chiliheads and growers. Like when they say they're already growing bhuts, but are looking for bih.
 
I know that ghost chili is just a generic term for Bhuts, as far as I have heard. Usually used by people not really into peppers. When I tell people at work I grow super hots, I always hear excitedly:
 
                      
 

          "So, do you grow Ghost Peppers?!"
 
 
Another one that gets me is the 7 pot....or 7 pod? Or maybe they are two different types...?
 
I don't know.
 
There seem to be too many of them to keep up with. Now I understand a YELLOW 7 or RED 7, because those are obviously different colors. But how do you know the difference between one or the other if color is not the issue?
 
 
 
...And it is 7 pot right?...like 7 pots of chilli?    
 
 
 
I know with all the cross breeding there are a lot of new ones coming out all the time, but as for some of the most basic of these just how many types are there of 7s and Bhuts and Nagas and whatnot?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[PepperDaddler]

So it seems I had a valid question. I kind of figured all of this was the case I was just not sure if there actually were tons of varieties with similar names or if it was just getting out of hand with the renaming and such. I guess it is a bigger problem than I had at first thought. I agree with MGOLD86 about waiting to name strains, and to me that should be the ONLY way to name them until stable .
 
Good feedback people. I hope you keep it coming.

 

[Nightshade]

I understand people saying not to name varieties until they are stable but I don't know if I agree with that 100% because take the sepia serpent created by silver surfer it is not stable but it is named for that phenotype. There are multiple phenotypes of the same cross so it helps keep track of that certain one but I think it is important to make sure you don't keep saying you have the serpent if your phenotype is wrong I think if yours doesn't grow true then the name should revert back to the cross whatever x whatever.

 

[Sawyer]

I understand people saying not to name varieties until they are stable but I don't know if I agree with that 100% because take the sepia serpent created by silver surfer it is not stable but it is named for that phenotype. There are multiple phenotypes of the same cross so it helps keep track of that certain one but I think it is important to make sure you don't keep saying you have the serpent if your phenotype is wrong I think if yours doesn't grow true then the name should revert back to the cross whatever x whatever.

 
That seems like a case of the creator enlisting the help of the community to select for that particular desirable phenotype.  Nothing wrong with that, quite the contrary, in fact, and certainly some sort of nomenclature is needed to distinguish the preferred phenotype from the undesirables.

 

[ZenPepper]

In an ideal world we should use a 4 variable naming system that would classify each type of pepper into these variables. Heat, Appearence, Taste and Size. (H.A.T.S) this way we can eliminate lots of overlapping names. some might say two types of peppers might have the same attributes, but if they are the same to us non-genetists it really makes no difference. And it would be so easy to catalog them, but Im doing this just as a hobby so Im happy calling them all just hot and tasty pepper.

 

[PeriPeri]

Hi PepperDaddler. Great threat, good question. I did a posting some time ago on the whole Ghost Pepper land race issue. I came up with probably no less than 10 indigenous variant names given to the "Ghost Pepper", according to culture, language and region on the Indian continent. I am using the term Ghost Pepper in the european context. As it does get very confusing with all the different regional names the pepper has.
 
There are a lot of name variations. Some natural - others contrived and forced by seed vendors wishing to offer something new and different or just cover their a$$es by giving seeds that have hybradized and are not stable a different name.
 
I think the most important thing is the protection and preservation of the original strains - in my mind. There will always be hybrids and more as time goes on. Birds and bees have been replaced by seed vendors and the postal service. On a global scale. Hybridization gone wild. This is putting the original chillies under threat. If we loose these, it would be truly tragic. In my mind inevitable the way things are going at the moment. But it takes people with a common goal to make things happen.
 
Very few if any seed vendors I think can safely say that their seeds are original strains. Most growers grow their plants in an open pollinated environment. And I think it is the responsibility of those vendors to establish to their client base that the seeds they are buying are "X" seed stock. This is something I have undertaken to do. Or possibly that every registered grower have a Grower ID trace number that seeds are marked with. So seed stock can always be traced back to the origin. But this just puts a band aid on the real problem though - I think!
 
If you buy a pedigree dog, you can trace its blood line through the pedigree certificate for instance. This would take the shape of an Association that growers can align themselves with. This Association would have pure original indigenous seed stocks. Fish Pepper seeds from their origins in the US. Malaguetta seeds from that region in South America... etc etc. To use only the names - the indigenous names used in those places of origin (so bye bye Ghost Pepper or Naga King Jolokia). Certified seeds stocks that the growers can grow from. In my mind, without this foundation of original varieties... you can not even begin to control the whole process as seeds out there are all pretty much X generation - even if they look close to the original strains. An association like this would not even look sideways at any Hybrid what so ever. The only hybrids that this Association would take into consideration would be those of members who can show certification on the original varieties and verify growth in isolation I suppose.
 
Setting up a system whereby people can have their phenotype adjudicated... wow, difficult I think. Pods vary so much. Some species are almost impossible to tell apart. This is excluding factors like weather... you can have a Moruga pod that in a colder climate looks totally different. Pods can only truly be judged by phenotype in peek summer, when pods are optimal I think. But still, very difficult indeed. Take the TS Moruga and Brainstrain. I think most people would be challenged to tell them apart even on a sunny day.
 
In  my mind, as a round up... an Association. Accreditation. Certification. Grower ID tracking. The use of Indigenous names not exotic adaptations of names.... would be a starter. Definitely no hybrids allowed. Where to start!

 

[PepperDaddler]

I don't know how well that idea will go over with everyone as a whole. I guess I understand where you're coming from with the different names in different regions part though.
 
But when someone has 2 plants that are the same exact species, and they are calling them 2 different names, and the person believes they are 2 different species could end up being a problem if the person is not just a hobbyist.
 
Example: "This year I have two plants, one is a 7 pod and one is a 7 pot."
 
I guess most of the time it cant be helped. If that is what they were told the plants are that is what they will believe.

 

[Sawyer]

I don't think Lourens is suggesting people shouldn't be able to make hybrids.  Crossing peppers is fun and a lot of interesting new varieties have come out of it.  If I'm understanding correctly, his point is more about figuring out a way to preserve the genetic diversity and identity of the original landrace Bhut Jolokia, Trinidad 7 Pot, Trinidad Scorpion, and so forth.  I'm on board with that and it's something we've discussed before, but haven't made a huge amount of progress on.  One aspect would be to come up with a breeding protocol that would enlist willing and capable THP members in a distributed breeding program so no one person has to grow and isolate 60 plants of any given landrace.  Of course, we'd have to have some confidence that our starting point varieties were true to type.  Ultimately, it's going take genetic testing to resolve some of these issues.
 
A couple of points on your post #26, Andy.  I know what you mean, but so far all the varieties mentioned in this thread are the same species, Capsicum chinense.  That's actually part of the problem.  All the (chinense, e.g.) varieties we'd like to think of as unique and special will easily interbreed with any other (chinense) variety.  To borrow Lourens pedigreed pooch analogy, it's like having a purebred female hooking up with the neighborhood mutts.  When she's in heat, she's not too particular about the pedigree of who services her.
 
Also, the 7 pod vs. 7 pot issue (I wouldn't really call it a controversy) I think is a different sort of thing.  The most believable story I've heard (and I'm willing to be persuaded differently by a convincing argument) is that the original, "proper", term is 7 pot, the story being that one pod is sufficient to spice up 7 pots of stew.  Confusing "pot" with "pod" is understandable and once someone learns a particular name for something, they tend to stick with it.  If someone says they have both a 7 pot and a 7 pod plant, they are probably just using the names from the source where they obtained the seed/plants. (Edit: as you said above.)
 
Edit:  Of course, even a plain 7 pot/pod from one source may look different from a 7 pot/pod from another source, because many growers are isolating single plants or just a few.  So even if hybridization isn't a problem, insufficient breeding population can be.  If I get seed from someone that calls them "7 pod", I'll respect that for the first season, but after that I call them "7 pot".

 

[PeriPeri]

I don't think Lourens is suggesting people shouldn't be able to make hybrids.  Crossing peppers is fun and a lot of interesting new varieties have come out of it.  If I'm understanding correctly, his point is more about figuring out a way to preserve the genetic diversity and identity of the original landrace Bhut Jolokia, Trinidad 7 Pot, Trinidad Scorpion, and so forth.  I'm on board with that and it's something we've discussed before, but haven't made a huge amount of progress on.  One aspect would be to come up with a breeding protocol that would enlist willing and capable THP members in a distributed breeding program so no one person has to grow and isolate 60 plants of any given landrace.  Of course, we'd have to have some confidence that our starting point varieties were true to type.  Ultimately, it's going take genetic testing to resolve some of these issues.
 
A couple of points on your post #26, Andy.  I know what you mean, but so far all the varieties mentioned in this thread are the same species, Capsicum chinense.  That's actually part of the problem.  All the (chinense, e.g.) varieties we'd like to think of as unique and special will easily interbreed with any other (chinense) variety.  To borrow Lourens pedigreed pooch analogy, it's like having a purebred female hooking up with the neighborhood mutts.  When she's in heat, she's not too particular about the pedigree of who services her.
 
Also, the 7 pod vs. 7 pot issue (I wouldn't really call it a controversy) I think is a different sort of thing.  The most believable story I've heard (and I'm willing to be persuaded differently by a convincing argument) is that the original, "proper", term is 7 pot, the story being that one pod is sufficient to spice up 7 pots of stew.  Confusing "pot" with "pod" is understandable and once someone learns a particular name for something, they tend to stick with it.  If someone says they have both a 7 pot and a 7 pod plant, they are probably just using the names from the source where they obtained the seed/plants. (Edit: as you said above.)
 
Edit:  Of course, even a plain 7 pot/pod from one source may look different from a 7 pot/pod from another source, because many growers are isolating single plants or just a few.  So even if hybridization isn't a problem, insufficient breeding population can be.  If I get seed from someone that calls them "7 pod", I'll respect that for the first season, but after that I call them "7 pot".

Copy that Sawyer... 7 Pot/Pod... I would go with the story that it's locally called a 7 Pot