Blisters 2015 Coco Grow! Difficult start...

Blister · May 14, 2015

dlsolo said:
I meant to ask last year, how is the taste? I k of my DWC has grown me some awesome bhuts, the heat was there but thought it would be hotter...

Just curious.

Flavor was great. I had the fruity flavor that's often described by those eating them on YouTube. The heat could have been better on my pods as well. I grew a red scorpion in a smaller pot that wilted a bunch between each watering. It was about the size of a nickel. I took a small nibble and had to spit it out. Man that was hot. It changed the way I'm growing this year. I'm going with smaller pots rather than the large hempy buckets. I just don't have the environment to really grow the superhots without having a hand in it all.

It's interesting to hear your experience with DWC and peppers.

Neil

Chilidude · May 16, 2015

Looking good there Blister, my plants in coco are also doing fine.

dlsolo · May 16, 2015

Hey Blister,

I'll be getting my DWC up and running next month. Gotta get the grow tent and LED lights up and running.

I'm really wanting to get my hands dirty with the coco experience you've got going and had a question about substrate. I know you mentioned you are using Canna Coco Coir. I'm not really down with sifting through the bag to get the good stuff. So, have you seen/heard about Coco Slab? http://www.planetnatural.com/product/coco-slabs/

It looks to be very similar to the regular Canna Coco, but wasn't sure if you happen to know the difference or hand any experience with the slabs.

BTW, sorry for my last post. Was trying out a new Android keyboard and the auto correct is very touchy. I grew an orange bhut and a peach bhut and they both were hot but not the super hot that a ghost pepper should be have. It may have been the nutes I was using...

Blister · May 16, 2015

Chilidude said:
Looking good there Blister, my plants in coco are also doing fine.

Thanks CD! I'm going to have to stroll over to your grow and check it out. Been fairly busy the last little while and haven't really had much time to poke around here.

dlsolo said:
Hey Blister,

I'll be getting my DWC up and running next month. Gotta get the grow tent and LED lights up and running.

I'm really wanting to get my hands dirty with the coco experience you've got going and had a question about substrate. I know you mentioned you are using Canna Coco Coir. I'm not really down with sifting through the bag to get the good stuff. So, have you seen/heard about Coco Slab? http://www.planetnatural.com/product/coco-slabs/

It looks to be very similar to the regular Canna Coco, but wasn't sure if you happen to know the difference or hand any experience with the slabs.

BTW, sorry for my last post. Was trying out a new Android keyboard and the auto correct is very touchy. I grew an orange bhut and a peach bhut and they both were hot but not the super hot that a ghost pepper should be have. It may have been the nutes I was using...

I haven't had any experience with the Canna's coco slabs. If they're anything like the loose bag stuff I bought, I think I would avoid it. I just haven't had much luck with Canna coco for some reason. I did my first coco grow with plain General Hydro Cocotek bricks. You have to expand them in a bucket with water, but they worked great. It was also nice that I could get a small brick for about $3 to see how things would go. It would kinda suck to buy a big bag of it and find out that it's not for you. Seemed to offer all that I needed for great drainage.

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/media/cocotek/natural_coconut_coir_brick/

You can also get it in the bigger blocks if you want. Again you'd have to hydrate it. In these cases you'd use a light calmag solution or a weak nutrient solution to charge the coco before use. I had kept up a much more detailed glog last year that documented my experience with coco. I used the cocotek bricks and mainly stuck to General Hydroponics Flora Micro and Flora Bloom. Dead simple and a great way to get into coco.

Don't worry about the last post. I have android systems as well and know what it's like to post from them.

Neil

Blister · May 19, 2015

I've been researching Canna Coco A+B line a bit and it seems that it's a bit backwards to a rough 1-1-2 balanced ratio that seems to work so well in coco and with my chilli plants. I say "roughly" balanced given that Potassium is usually held a bit lower for coco nutes because coco tends to release Potassium throughout the season as you water. In these cases it seems like the ratio should be around 1-.6-2 ratio.

The idea is to basically hold everything roughly equal to:

N 100
P 60-100
K 200

So after browsing some helpful medicinal/lawn care forums for answers, it appears that Canna Coco A+B at a rate of 5.7ml of A and 5.7ml of B in 1 Gal of RO water is closer to a 2-1-1 ratio:

N 87
P 30
K 43
Mg 17

It also appears that Mg is a bit low too. I've read more than a few posts that say you should add epsom salts to the mix to bring them up to an acceptable level.

If we look at GreatH3ed's formula of 6ml/Micro and 9ml/Bloom we find:

N 97
P 60
K188
Mg 27
Ca 97

You can create a more balanced formula for Canna coco A+B if you use Canna PK 13-14. 2.5ml/Gal gives:

N 0
P 45
K 92

If you add Canna A+B and PK 13-14 together you'd get:

N 87
P 75
K 135

It's not quite the 1-1-2 ratio that most shoot for, but I'm going to give it a try in a few plants as a test run to see how things work out for me. I've also added 3ml of Botannicare's Huvega (now called Fulvex). This is basically epsom salt in liquid form. I'm hoping the more balanced formula will allow me to use the 2 liters of Canna A and 2 liters of Canna B I happen to have on hand.

I'm not sure at this point how much ppm of epsom is added with 3 ml of Fulvex. I'll have to check the next time I mix up some nutes.

Neil

maximumcapsicum · May 20, 2015

He Blister those numbers look good, and are very helpful. I haven't been posting enough but believe me I have been using your insights.

I am impressed with the grow rate on this jolokia... the material just breaths so well the plant is adding like a quarter inch each night. I've been running around 700 ppm, though when I dropped the calmag that opened about 200 ppm for additional nitrogen. I've continued with the recommendations that came with the general hydro started kit, tho if I have problems I am going to switch to your numbers. Next time around I am going to use your numbers from the start.

Botanicare coco is what I am using. Came in a brick and needed a lot of rinsing but seems to be working out. It's compacting quite a bit but I didn't add any perlite.

ColdSmoke · May 20, 2015

This makes me want to experiment. I have excess amounts of coco and peat. Thinking about potting up some of my starters with just those and using my nute lineup from NFTG. Talking about outdoor containers...is this a method that people use?

maximumcapsicum · May 20, 2015

I read that coco does better indoors because of temp control. The nutes don't behave if they get too hot. I could be wrong though.

Blister · May 20, 2015

maximumcapsicum said:
He Blister those numbers look good, and are very helpful. I haven't been posting enough but believe me I have been using your insights.

I am impressed with the grow rate on this jolokia... the material just breaths so well the plant is adding like a quarter inch each night. I've been running around 700 ppm, though when I dropped the calmag that opened about 200 ppm for additional nitrogen. I've continued with the recommendations that came with the general hydro started kit, tho if I have problems I am going to switch to your numbers. Next time around I am going to use your numbers from the start.

Botanicare coco is what I am using. Came in a brick and needed a lot of rinsing but seems to be working out. It's compacting quite a bit but I didn't add any perlite.

Sounds awesome MC! I'm always surprised at how well peppers grow in coco. I found that sifting the coco and leaving just the coarser chucks of coco removes the density that comes from fine grind coco. Water streams through it quickly and doesn't compact. I never had issues with it until I bought the bagged stuff. I tried adding perlite to it to lighten it up, but didn't seem to really help much. Again once I sifted it through a fine mesh strainer, things turned around. I was happy I was able to use up the last of the bagged coco that I had bought.

ColdSmoke said:
This makes me want to experiment. I have excess amounts of coco and peat. Thinking about potting up some of my starters with just those and using my nute lineup from NFTG. Talking about outdoor containers...is this a method that people use?

Give it a go ColdSmoke! I grow all my peppers in containers. For my particular situation I'm using pots around the 1 gal size. They seem to provide the best balance for multiple waterings, plant size and the ablity to let it wilt a bit during the hot days. Things may be different for folks in the hotter climates though. In my case, bigger was not better. It produced lots of peppers, but I didn't find that the heat was all that it could be. That said many medicinal growers say you should NEVER let coco dry out. Apparently the salts crystalize and you kill the beneficial organizms in the coco. I don't know how true this is, but I do know that the pots that dried out on me last year produced the hottest peppers of them all.

maximumcapsicum said:
I read that coco does better indoors because of temp control. The nutes don't behave if they get too hot. I could be wrong though.

I have no idea on that. I run my coco pots outside in the direct sun as soon as it's warm enough to put them outside. Last year we had 25-30c days. Hadn't noticed anything funny with them. Maybe it has something to do with the smaller pots and hand watering them a few times during the day? I keep my mixed nutes inside so they stay cool.

Did you find anything specific on what happens to the nutes when outdoors? Ph swings or something else?

Neil

maximumcapsicum · May 20, 2015

Hi Neil! According to the general hydroponic starter kit the nutes undergo some changes with heating that make them harder for the plants to absorb. Heat in the system also speeds up chemical reactions and can contribute to ph swings and generally futzes with absorption. That said, hands on experience is worth twenty starter kit instruction booklets, and peppers may not have been the crops the general hydro folks has in mind when they were writing.

I am actually kind of releived because my indoor lights are weak sauce, just cfls and a bright window. So if there are issues the coco may go outside later on. We'll see!

ColdSmoke · May 20, 2015

maximumcapsicum said:
That said, hands on experience is worth twenty starter kit instruction booklets, and peppers may not have been the crops the general hydro folks has in mind when they were writing.

This is why we must experiment!

Blister · May 20, 2015

maximumcapsicum said:
Hi Neil! According to the general hydroponic starter kit the nutes undergo some changes with heating that make them harder for the plants to absorb. Heat in the system also speeds up chemical reactions and can contribute to ph swings and generally futzes with absorption. That said, hands on experience is worth twenty starter kit instruction booklets, and peppers may not have been the crops the general hydro folks has in mind when they were writing.

I am actually kind of releived because my indoor lights are weak sauce, just cfls and a bright window. So if there are issues the coco may go outside later on. We'll see!

Thanks for posting that. I have read that DWC folks work hard at keeping their reservoirs cool in the summer (though I can't recall the temperature of hand). I have no idea if this applies to hand watering and coco given that I keep my nutes cool inside the house. Here's an example from last year after being outside all summer in coco

Its one of my Bonnets that I had in a hempy bucket. I got a few harvests out of it.

Neil

ColdSmoke said:
This is why we must experiment!

I agree! I'm sure glad I experimented with coco. I just couldn't get the superhots to produce any other way. Not even when I had 4 year old plants in soil.

maximumcapsicum · May 21, 2015

Great points of comparison! In a pinch I may put the coco outside, but I think my summer temps run a bit hotter, though I could probably set it up so the pot itself was shaded.

Blister · May 22, 2015

maximumcapsicum said:
Great points of comparison! In a pinch I may put the coco outside, but I think my summer temps run a bit hotter, though I could probably set it up so the pot itself was shaded.

There's no doubt that your summers get hotter than mine, but I don't believe it'll be a problem in coco given that hotter temperatures tend to evaporate water faster. I had to water my plants multiple times last summer when my plants were outside. Even when they were in Hempy buckets.

Neil

Blister · May 23, 2015

Time for another small update. I've potted up a few plants now that I have larger pots. I'm thinking that these will be the final pot for the season. Last year the pots I used were too big. They produced lots, but they never really got all that hot. The plants in the smaller buckets allowed me time to let them wilt before watering again. Fingers crossed that this is the size I need because there seems to be a ratio of pot size, plant size, and overall ambient temperature when it comes to growing peppers in my region.

Too large a pot and my plants grow great, but never dry out to the point where they can wilt.

Too small a pot and I can water multiple times a day and still let my plants wilt when needed. The downside is that the plants don't get as big or produce as much.

I'm shooting for a pot that will allow a plant to reach a decent size, be watered a couple times a day on the hot days, as well as wilt a bunch when fruit sets. We'll see how it goes this summer.

Now for the update on my plants. I potted up a Bubblegum and another Douglah. Sorry for the blurry pics.

I can't recall exactly, but I believe this is the Douglah. I am only using the larger bucket to expand my new brick of GH Cocotek. Roots are nice and white. Lots of little hair roots on each as well. Not to mention roots nearly to the top of the coco!

I believe this is my Bubblegum.

Here they are in their final pots. The bubblegum is on the one on the left. Looks like it was about to fork, but only one side grew. This is my only Bubblegum 7-pot so I'm hoping it produces.

I've also been playing with CannaStats Nutrient Calculator a bit more too. http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm. If the goal is to shoot for a balanced nutrient solution of 100-100-200 NPK I should be running the following in 4L RO water.

1.5ml - Huvega (Epsom Salt)
7 ml - Canna Coco A
7 ml - Canna Coco B
4 ml - Canna PK 13-14

This gives me a total NPK of:

N - 108
P - 98
K - 177
Mg - 55
S - 15
Ca - 108

This gives me 630ppm (NaCl) or 1.26mS
Initial Ph-6.4 and requires me to add 15 drops of Ph down to bring it to PH-5.7.

I'll be giving this to a few of my plants to see how they like it. I had been giving a slightly different Canna solution to my plants and they appeared to really like it. Leaves flattened out on all new growth and they had decent green to them. I'm really hoping that this mixture allows me to use up the nutrients that I have on hand. I'd hate to have wasted money on something that I can't get to work.

Thanks for reading!

Neil

dlsolo · May 23, 2015

Im so excited about trying coco out. I picked up some Advanced Nutrients Sensi Coco nutes. Not a bad price on Amazon . Plus, based on your recommendation, I picked up a GH brick. Just waiting on my seedlings to sprout and my wife to finalize my plan (safety first), then I'll be set.

Dude, thanks for the continued source of information and insight.

Blister · May 23, 2015

dlsolo said:
Im so excited about trying coco out. I picked up some Advanced Nutrients Sensi Coco nutes. Not a bad price on Amazon . Plus, based on your recommendation, I picked up a GH brick. Just waiting on my seedlings to sprout and my wife to finalize my plan (safety first), then I'll be set. Dude, thanks for the continued source of information and insight.

Awesome! I'm so glad that my adventures in coco have been able to help some folks find their way through and get new people interested in trying it. I never thought my glog would be more than a place for me to document my findings and have a place to look back on them as each new year came along.

I gave AN's Monkey Juice Bloom A+B a go on my first run with coco. It was old nutes and I think they even froze at one point. I had particulate falling out too. Produced some nice plants until I switched everything over to GH's Flora Micro and Bloom. Seems as though some people really don't like AN products, but I never had a problem with the limited experience I had with them. Looking forward to seeing how Sensi Coco works for you.

I just finished expanding some GH Cocotek earlier today. I like to put about 5ml of Calmag+ (any quality hydro calmag product will do) into 2L of warm water and slowly pour it over the brick and let it expand some. Bust it up by hand, then pour more water over the remaining parts of the brick that hadn't expanded. It helps pre-charge the coco from what I've read. I use a small syringe that I got from a Children's Tylenol pack. Good for metering out up to 10ml in small increments.

Here's a small chuck of coco that I'm expanding.

Two more MoA Bonnets that I'm moving from 5" square pots to 8.5"dia x 8.5" tall pots. These will be their final homes for the summer. I think I have all the plants I want now. Will look around and see if anyone local is interested in some hot pepper plants.

Roots...

More roots...

Final home

Neil

maximumcapsicum · May 23, 2015

Great update Neil! Info packed as usual. Here's to hoping you get the right size pot.

My jolokia is looking great. When I rinsed it the water had about 300 ppm in it, so I think the plant is absorbing around 300 ppm of nutes over the week. The coco is compacting but I think the plant is thriving. Flushed it entirely today. Got buds over the past couple days. I'll post some pics soon.

Chilidude · May 24, 2015

Do some experiments with coco in a airpot or similar kind of container, i would like to see your results with them. :rolleyes:

Yellowfin2na · May 24, 2015

Awesome grow. When you check the PH of Coco can you use the same dropper test that you would use for hydro?