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Calcium for plants
- Thread starter smokemaster
- Start date
cool.....will add more vinegar then!
The only reason i didn't already add more is that it still smelt REALLY vinegary....which made me think that vinegar (or acid) was still very much present..... but i guess i'll try and add more and see how it pans out...
Hi Stick!
OK, the white vinegar i bought just had "white vinegar" on the ingredients list, which i'm guessing just makes it 100% white vinegar!?
white vinegar is acetic acid (CH3COOH) in solution with water (aqueous). Cider vinegar has other additional compounds from the apple that give it a bit of color and somewhat fruity smell and taste. You said you could still smell vinegar after the reaction had run its course, so I was wondering if you were using another kind of vinegar. Cheers
okey dokey....so still add more then? or not?
nee
The other 95% of vinegar will be water.
If the fizzing has stop the reaction is over (or near over).
I see your problem - there is solid but you can still smell vinegar. So what's going on?
Vinegar has a pretty potent smell so the vinegar might only be around in trace amounts.
The white solid might also be calcium acetate formed in the reaction, rather than the added calcium carbonate. While calcium acetate is more soluble in water (34.7 g/100 mL) than calcium carbonate (0.15 g/100 mL) your solution might be saturated. According to Wikipedia calcium acetate has a solubility of 34.7 g/100 mL so if you've made more than 35 g per 100 ml of water it will begin to precipitate from solution.
To test the solid you could scoop some out and add fresh vinegar - if it fizzes then it contains calcium carbonate if not, then it will be calcium acetate.
The other problem will be as the vinegar and calcium carbonate are used in the reaction, the reaction will slow down. This is because the reagents will become more dilute and so will find it more difficult to find each other - you could try to heat the reaction up a little, maybe in an old sauce pan. Can't see how this can damage the calcium acetate or carbonate, and has the advantage that it will tend to boil off any remaining vinegar.
Excess vinegar seems to be a worse option than excess calcium carbonate.
I tried the reaction using antacid tablets, the problem is that these tablets contain sugar and I think kaolin (and spearmint flavour!). The problem with the kaolin is that I've had the same problem – a white precipitate and yet a slight whiff of spearmint/vinegar. I should have used sugar free tablets! I also saw in the local DIY shop that you can by pure calcium carbonate, next time I will used that!
Therefore:
(1) try heating the solution in a saucepan and still if it still has that fizz! At least this should get rid of the remaining vinegar.
(2) Also scoop out a little of the white solid and test it with some fresh neat vinegar to see if it still fizzes.
Hope that helps
CH
kishke - not sure what is going on with your eggshells, but becareful with that glacial acetic acid!!
The other 95% of vinegar will be water.
If the fizzing has stop the reaction is over (or near over).
I see your problem - there is solid but you can still smell vinegar. So what's going on?
Vinegar has a pretty potent smell so the vinegar might only be around in trace amounts.
The white solid might also be calcium acetate formed in the reaction, rather than the added calcium carbonate. While calcium acetate is more soluble in water (34.7 g/100 mL) than calcium carbonate (0.15 g/100 mL) your solution might be saturated. According to Wikipedia calcium acetate has a solubility of 34.7 g/100 mL so if you've made more than 35 g per 100 ml of water it will begin to precipitate from solution.
To test the solid you could scoop some out and add fresh vinegar - if it fizzes then it contains calcium carbonate if not, then it will be calcium acetate.
The other problem will be as the vinegar and calcium carbonate are used in the reaction, the reaction will slow down. This is because the reagents will become more dilute and so will find it more difficult to find each other - you could try to heat the reaction up a little, maybe in an old sauce pan. Can't see how this can damage the calcium acetate or carbonate, and has the advantage that it will tend to boil off any remaining vinegar.
Excess vinegar seems to be a worse option than excess calcium carbonate.
I tried the reaction using antacid tablets, the problem is that these tablets contain sugar and I think kaolin (and spearmint flavour!). The problem with the kaolin is that I've had the same problem – a white precipitate and yet a slight whiff of spearmint/vinegar. I should have used sugar free tablets! I also saw in the local DIY shop that you can by pure calcium carbonate, next time I will used that!
Therefore:
(1) try heating the solution in a saucepan and still if it still has that fizz! At least this should get rid of the remaining vinegar.
(2) Also scoop out a little of the white solid and test it with some fresh neat vinegar to see if it still fizzes.
Hope that helps
CH
kishke - not sure what is going on with your eggshells, but becareful with that glacial acetic acid!!
That glacial acetic acid is long gone by now, and dont worry I used gloves ^^. Next time I dissolve egg shells I'll try doing it with a lot of vingear and adding shells slowly until it stops fizzing.
You have idea why some people say to cook the shells until they are black?
kishke - gloves are good, but make sure you look after your eyes!!!!!! Personally, I'd steer clear of the glacial acetic acid, it a little too powerful for what you need!
Maybe the idea of turning egg shells black is to burn off any proteins etc from the eggs?
Adding excess vinegar could be a good idea, you just need to get rid of it in the end. Maybe when the fizzing slows simmer it for a few hours on a low heat until the reaction is over and all the acetic acid boils off, topping up with water now and again if the level of water drops too low!
Mezo - what's in it?
Maybe the idea of turning egg shells black is to burn off any proteins etc from the eggs?
Adding excess vinegar could be a good idea, you just need to get rid of it in the end. Maybe when the fizzing slows simmer it for a few hours on a low heat until the reaction is over and all the acetic acid boils off, topping up with water now and again if the level of water drops too low!
Mezo - what's in it?
I wasn't that muxh aroung 50 ml. Anyway what im doing with my current batch is I added water so all the sediment will dissolve and im slowly evaporating all the liquid in the stun to get solid clacium acetate which eventually will be crush and into powder and added to water. I think this should get rid of the excess acetate if it wasn't all used in the reaction.
Just looked up dolomite on the internet - seems to contain 'calcium magnesium carbonate' (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite)
Therefore, you will be adding one magnesium to every calcium. Provided that you want magnesium as well as calcium then that should be fine.
Wikipedia states that dolomite is "Poorly soluble in dilute HCl unless powdered.".
This means that it will not be very water soluble! Dolomite will therefore only dissolve very slowly, and only when there is some form of acid around - either in the soil or when there is some acid in the rain water. If you want calcium fast, dolomite is probably not what you are after!
Sounds like a good plan - in the best case scenario you will get 100% calcium acetate and no acid residue, and the worse case scenario will be that you will have some calcium carbonate left in your calcium acetate! That is no problem, as the remaining calcium carbonate will only release calcium slowly, although will make your soil a little more basic. If you want to make sure that you have no acetic acid left you could let it go dry in the sun, add water, let it go dry again, repeat if you want till all the vinegar wiff gas gone!
I presume 'stun' was meant to be 'sun' :O)
Therefore, you will be adding one magnesium to every calcium. Provided that you want magnesium as well as calcium then that should be fine.
Wikipedia states that dolomite is "Poorly soluble in dilute HCl unless powdered.".
This means that it will not be very water soluble! Dolomite will therefore only dissolve very slowly, and only when there is some form of acid around - either in the soil or when there is some acid in the rain water. If you want calcium fast, dolomite is probably not what you are after!
Sounds like a good plan - in the best case scenario you will get 100% calcium acetate and no acid residue, and the worse case scenario will be that you will have some calcium carbonate left in your calcium acetate! That is no problem, as the remaining calcium carbonate will only release calcium slowly, although will make your soil a little more basic. If you want to make sure that you have no acetic acid left you could let it go dry in the sun, add water, let it go dry again, repeat if you want till all the vinegar wiff gas gone!
I presume 'stun' was meant to be 'sun' :O)
Nice work!
I'd be tempted to follow the instruction is foli-cal, i.e.: http://www.montereyl...foli_cal_02.pdf
Foli-cal concentrate says it has 10% Calcium (mass ratio of about 40). Therefore, this equates to 10g of 'calcium' in 100 ml of water.
Since you have 'calcium acetate' (mass ratio of about 158), this would equate to about 39.5 grams in 100 mls in the foli-cal concentrate.
Foli-cal then states that the concentrate should be diluted to 3 fluid ounce (about 89 mls) in 2 gallons (about 7500 ml).
Therefore, I think you need about 4.6 grams of calcium acetate per litre of water.
However, caution suggest ramping up the concentration up gradually!!!!
Hope that helps for what is worth.
The above link to the foli-cal pdf gives the rest of the instructions!
Here are my numbers if anyone wants to give them the once over:
Foli-cal concentrate: Mass (grams) Volume of water (ml) calcium' (grams) 10.0 100 Calcium Acetate (grams) 39.5 100 Dilution instructions of Foli-cal: Volume of Concentrate Diluted into gallons Fluid ounces 3.0 2.0 Equates to mls: 88.7 7570.8 Dilution equates to: Volume of water (ml) Calcium acetate (grams) 35.1 7570.8 Calcium acetate (grams) 4.6 1000.0
Looks like the above "table" did not come out, so please ignore it!
I'd be tempted to follow the instruction is foli-cal, i.e.: http://www.montereyl...foli_cal_02.pdf
Foli-cal concentrate says it has 10% Calcium (mass ratio of about 40). Therefore, this equates to 10g of 'calcium' in 100 ml of water.
Since you have 'calcium acetate' (mass ratio of about 158), this would equate to about 39.5 grams in 100 mls in the foli-cal concentrate.
Foli-cal then states that the concentrate should be diluted to 3 fluid ounce (about 89 mls) in 2 gallons (about 7500 ml).
Therefore, I think you need about 4.6 grams of calcium acetate per litre of water.
However, caution suggest ramping up the concentration up gradually!!!!
Hope that helps for what is worth.
The above link to the foli-cal pdf gives the rest of the instructions!
Here are my numbers if anyone wants to give them the once over:
Foli-cal concentrate: Mass (grams) Volume of water (ml) calcium' (grams) 10.0 100 Calcium Acetate (grams) 39.5 100 Dilution instructions of Foli-cal: Volume of Concentrate Diluted into gallons Fluid ounces 3.0 2.0 Equates to mls: 88.7 7570.8 Dilution equates to: Volume of water (ml) Calcium acetate (grams) 35.1 7570.8 Calcium acetate (grams) 4.6 1000.0
Looks like the above "table" did not come out, so please ignore it!Good question - a tea spoon would be about right-ish, but will depend on how 'fluffy' your powder is.
Again, you might want to gradually ramp it up, just to be on the safe side. Therefore maybe add a quarter of a teaspoon to start with??
Again, you might want to gradually ramp it up, just to be on the safe side. Therefore maybe add a quarter of a teaspoon to start with??
